D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[Undrave]

I just reread the OP and that is not the claim, as far as I can tell.

It alleges that experienced players who enjoying leveraging the rules (a certain playstyle that rhymes with shower tamer) will overwhelmingly choose casters over martials. It does not make this claim of inexperienced players, or of players who do not participate in that approach to the game.

Presumably the survey you showed us was not exclusively directed at experienced players who enjoy leveraging the rules.

The DnDBeyond stats can't even make the difference between characters built 'just because' and characters being actively played.

And it traditionally skew towards the classes available as free material on the website.

 

[FrogReaver]

The DnDBeyond stats can't even make the difference between characters built 'just because' and characters being actively played.

And it traditionally skew towards the classes available as free material on the website.

And also classes that are easy to muliclass (as both classes tend to count in their stats). This is one reason warlocks are so popular IMO - because hexblade makes a great dip for many characters.

 

[Campbell]

Fundamentally I think there needs to be a way to have warrior type characters that have a high skill ceiling and at least a moderate skill floor. Like I really want to have the ability to have those play of the game type moments and perform poorly when I make poor decisions. The issue with the Battle Master is that the Fighter chassis is just too damn reliable. 3 attacks with action surge is hard to not be effective with. The maneuvers are also not nearly situational enough to have those really big moments and those I messed up real bad moments.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Sure. I think there's a reason anti-magic zones exist and not anti-martial zones.

I don't really think it's worth bringing up specific exceptions where some particular class doesn't work well. There's plenty of that to go around for everyone.


Any what if ruling could impact either very badly.


You can do a similar thing with 2 casters, one using wall of force and the other using sickening radiance. Martials don't get that kind of power or synergy.

Force Cage is a 7th level spell. You don't get one of those until 13th level. You don't get a second slot until 20th level. And if it gets countered...

By the time you're that high enemies will often have ways to circumvent such tactics. Teleportation is not uncommon at that level. Which only works on the cage, but the cube is smaller than many enemies.

I think you're white rooming kinda hard. You might as well argue that a mage can wish their enemies from existence. That's technically true, but only with a lot of caveats.

 

[FrogReaver]

A battle master is going to have a lot to use on a 1-encounter day. So will an EK or an AT. Honestly a Rogue has a lot he can do in any fight as most of their subclasses have a unique always on ability with a combat use.

Not compared to paladin. Not really compared to Barbarian either. Not compared to hexblade. Not compared to rangers pre level 11.

Non AT-Rogues suck at combat in 1 combat adventuring day. The lack of boosts to their damage makes them underperform every other class. However, they are very good in the rest of the adventuring day.

AT is the king of these with his mage hand. Every turn he can get in his own attack, usually with SA and his hand either pulls something out of his pack (vial of acid/holy water/oil/poision, caltrops, ball bearings), deploys what he pulled out last turn, or tries to take something from the enemy with SOH. The best is lifting the enemies component pouch or spell focus if he is not holding it. It is like a counterspell only it lasts the entire battle.

IMO. Them is some very lenient DM rulings.

 

[Don Durito]

Fundamentally I think there needs to be a way to have warrior type characters that have a high skill ceiling and at least a moderate skill floor. Like I really want to have the ability to have those play of the game type moments and perform poorly when I make poor decisions. The issue with the Battle Master is that the Fighter chassis is just too damn reliable. 3 attacks with action surge is hard to not be effective with. The maneuvers are also not nearly situational enough to have those really big moments and those I messed up real bad moments.

I do feel that the single biggest issue with the Fighter is having the 3 attacks as a class feature. If it was a Champion subclass feature instead there would be an awful lot of design space to give the Battlemaster better maneuvers.

 

[Campbell]

I do feel that the single biggest issue with the Fighter is having the 3 attacks as a class feature. If it was a Champion subclass feature instead there would be an awful lot of design space to give the Battlemaster better maneuvers.

In general I would be much happier if subclass had much larger impact and class chassis had much less.

 

[FrogReaver]

Force Cage is a 7th level spell. You don't get one of those until 13th level. You don't get a second slot until 20th level. And if it gets countered...

1. It has a longer range than counterspell. So does sickening radiance.
2. You get a 2nd slot that can be used for it at level 15.
3. This is just one example of a strong caster spell combo.

By the time you're that high enemies will often have ways to circumvent such tactics. Teleportation is not uncommon at that level. Which only works on the cage, but the cube is smaller than many enemies.

It doesn't have to be fool proof. I'm not saying it's the end all be all of everything. It's an example of the kind of power casters can acheive that martials cannot.

Also, what I would really like to know is if enemies can circumvent the Wizards Tactics what are they doing to the Greatsword swinging Barbarian or Fighters tactics...

I think you're white rooming kinda hard. You might as well argue that a mage can wish their enemies from existence. That's technically true, but only with a lot of caveats.

It's really not that many caveats and it's a single example. The point being that this illustrates the kind of power martials lack. With 2 casters in the party the 'combo' can be pulled off by level 9. Wall of Force often works just as well as forcecage. If the combo can work on even 20% of tough solo enemies I'd say that's enough to make my case.

 

[ECMO3]

Not compared to paladin. Not really compared to Barbarian either. Not compared to hexblade. Not compared to rangers pre level 11.

Non AT-Rogues suck at combat in 1 combat adventuring day. The lack of boosts to their damage makes them underperform every other class. However, they are very good in the rest of the adventuring day.

Are you basing this on how much damage they do or how many different things they do?

I thought the post was having meaningful things to do in combat? In raw damage you are right.

With cunning hands most Rogues, and especially most thieves are using a bonus action every turn and even the basic archer doing nothing but steady aim is going to be doing SA with advantage every single turn.

IMO. Them is some very lenient DM rulings.

How so? Most of those things are either in the description of mage hand or in the description of the Mage hand Legerdemain ability?

Now she won't let me take something out of my pack and use it in the same turn that is two actions (or two bonus actions for an arcane trickster).

Mage Hand description:
A spectral, floating hand appears at a point you choose within range. The hand lasts for the duration or until you dismiss it as an action. The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 30 feet away from you or if you cast this spell again.
You can use your action to control the hand. You can use the hand to manipulate an object, open an unlocked door or container, stow or retrieve an item from an open container, or pour the contents out of a vial. You can move the hand up to 30 feet each time you use it.
The hand can’t attack, activate magic items, or carry more than 10 pounds.

Mage Hand Legerdemain:
Starting at 3rd level, when you cast Mage Hand you can make the spectral hand invisible, and you can perform the following additional tasks with it:

• You can stow one object the hand is holding in a container worn or carried by another creature.
• You can retrieve an object in a container worn or carried by another creature.
• You can use thieves' tools to pick locks and disarm traps at range.

You can perform one of these tasks without being noticed by a creature if you succeed on a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check contested by the creature's Wisdom (Perception) check.

In addition, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to control the hand.

 

[FrogReaver]

How so? Most of those things are either in the description of mage hand or in the description of the Mage hand Legerdemain ability?

Now she won't let me take something out of my pack and use it in the same turn that is two actions (or two bonus actions for an arcane trickster).

Yea, that sounds more normal.

Mage Hand description:
A spectral, floating hand appears at a point you choose within range. The hand lasts for the duration or until you dismiss it as an action. The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 30 feet away from you or if you cast this spell again.
You can use your action to control the hand. You can use the hand to manipulate an object, open an unlocked door or container, stow or retrieve an item from an open container, or pour the contents out of a vial. You can move the hand up to 30 feet each time you use it.
The hand can’t attack, activate magic items, or carry more than 10 pounds.

Mage Hand Legerdemain:
Starting at 3rd level, when you cast Mage Hand you can make the spectral hand invisible, and you can perform the following additional tasks with it:

• You can stow one object the hand is holding in a container worn or carried by another creature.
• You can retrieve an object in a container worn or carried by another creature.
• You can use thieves' tools to pick locks and disarm traps at range.

You can perform one of these tasks without being noticed by a creature if you succeed on a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check contested by the creature's Wisdom (Perception) check.

In addition, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to control the hand.

I still don't see what's allowing you to take the enemies component pouch?