It's funny, I hadn't realized it was that early! But, of course you're right. It just doesn't increase again until 18th level. kind of an odd progrerssion.
D&D 5E How on earth is this balanced?! Twilight cleric, more in-play evidence
It's funny, I hadn't realized it was that early! But, of course you're right. It just doesn't increase again until 18th level. kind of an odd progrerssion.
Ancalagon
Dusty Dragon
I have an other argument that "proves" this is not balanced, at all.
A lot of class abilities duplicate feats or spells - warlocks, for example, get fiendish resilience, which gives false life, a first level spell, at will. It gives you 1d4+4 temp hp.
I think we can agree that false life is a bit weak. When you upcast it, you gain 5 more temp hp... but I think one could agree that an "alternate" version would cast it on a number of people instead.
So the twiligh's aura is basically casting a level 4 (depending on how many party members there are) spell every round, without concentration, and only for a single action, for a minute.
A lot of class abilities duplicate feats or spells - warlocks, for example, get fiendish resilience, which gives false life, a first level spell, at will. It gives you 1d4+4 temp hp.
I think we can agree that false life is a bit weak. When you upcast it, you gain 5 more temp hp... but I think one could agree that an "alternate" version would cast it on a number of people instead.
So the twiligh's aura is basically casting a level 4 (depending on how many party members there are) spell every round, without concentration, and only for a single action, for a minute.
Another way of saying this is that the spell is either giving Fast Healing 10+ for a minute, OR is Casting Mass Cure Light Wounds on everyone for a minute.
Sure, it's wasted if nobody attacks. The point is, it is damage ablation, and is just as useful as actual healing during a fight. Even if you want to argue it is only half as useful as actual healing... that's still a repeated 4th level spell cast at least 5 times over the course of a minute.
It is WAY OP for the level the character gets it at, compared to other similar abilities.
Redwizard007
Adventurer
In a vacuum you are perfectly correct. In my games, both as a player and as a DM, we see a lot of focused fire. Whatever the opponents consider the biggest threat takes far more attacks than everyone else. Specific situations may change that, but it seems pretty consistent. In those situations the Twilight Cleric is FAR more balanced. It's still an OP ability compared to other cleric subclasses, but not nearly the ban-worthy rant-inspiring ability that I see talked about on the internet.
Stating smart enemies will take out the OP cleric first doesn't in any way change the fact that the subclass is OP. Frankly saying that smart enemies will focus fire on the Cleric because they see him as clearly the biggest threat confirms the point.
Savage Wombat
Hero
That's not what he means - it's that Twilight is less effective at damage-mitigation-per-round if only one PC - any single PC - is taking damage each round.
Northern Phoenix
Adventurer
That's not exactly a weakness when Twilight Cleric can also attack and heal itself at the same time while maintaining Twilight Sanctuary while also having top-tier defenses.
Oh, and past level 6 they can do all that with concentration-less Flight, because of course.
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Not sure that's what he said: but
1. 2d6 extra HP per round is decent damage mitigation;
2. Since the aura is not concentration, the twilight cleric gets that plus, say, aura of vitality (which they are one of the few clerics to get) so the person getting hit essentially getso 4d6 damage mitigation per round. And the cleric can still cast!
In other words, the twilight cleric is as good or better at mitigation then most other subclasses (I'd say the peace cleric can be better, if the party is seriously on top of it AND really knows what their doing) .
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Redwizard007
Adventurer
Savage Wombat has it right, or my perspective anyway. The cleric has rarely been the focused on target. For a lot of combat it was the half-giant barbarian. Other times the back row of casters. The damage mitigation was solid but not encounter breaking. Where things got wacky was when enemies tried to man up on the PCs. Then it was like they weren't even doing damage. Thankfully, that's rare in my games.
I still agree that the Twilight domain is a little over the top, but its no worse than dealing with Aarakocra, Bladesingers, Gloomstalkers, Aberrant Minds or Eloquence bards. They all have the potential to screw up modules pretty easily but aren't that bad if the DM is riffing something homebrewed that let's them adjust to the PCs. Having said all that, errata or house rules to nerf Twilight clerics a bit would be a solid change that I could easily get behind and several options I've seen in these threads would make perfect sense.
For the level it gets the ability at, it's OP when compared against other similar abilities. That's all we are saying. At higher levels, sure, it's not a stand out. But compared to everything else out there in a vacuum, it's not balanced.
Having to deliberately take steps to neutralize a basic ability like this is generally a warning sign that it's OP and affects entire encounter planning all by itself.
Having to deliberately take steps to neutralize a basic ability like this is generally a warning sign that it's OP and affects entire encounter planning all by itself.
