D&D 5E I thought WotC was removing biological morals?

[Alzrius]

Language is finite. All that happens is people run the same litmus test on language that they do with visual art. So the author must mix and match different negative language through history in order to pass the litmus. But no matter how it is done, you are correct, there will always be allusions to some writing in history. It is how much it mirrors a specific group that causes conflict.

So you're saying you don't think that the original descriptions for draconians in MC4 Monstrous Compendium Dragonlance Appendix (affiliate link), published in 1990, references any particular real-world ethnicity?

Sivaks are savage, shapechanging draconians that are derived from the eggs of silver dragons.

"Acts of racial violence were justified and encouraged through the emphasis on this stereotype of the Savage." -Laura Green, Negative Racial Stereotypes and Their Effect on Attitudes Toward African-Americans.

Soft-spoken and coldblooded, no act of violence is too extreme for an Aurak.

"As 'Black demons,' African American men are stereotyped as prone to criminality and violence and unable to fit into society." -Book review, Black demons: The media’s depiction of the African American male criminal stereotype.

Baaz live lawless, disorderly lives, utterly lacking in self-discipline.

"White Americans value self-reliance and object that blacks fail to demonstrate self-discipline." -Michèle Lamont, Who counts as “them?”: racism and virtue in the United States and France.

That's just the tip of the iceberg. While The Doom Brigade tried to walk back the essentialist language, its sequel, Draconian Measures, embraced racial nationalism by giving the draconians their own nation, Teyr. Because that's not racist in any way at all.

 

[Umbran]

I am just waiting for the outrage ...

Mod Note:
Across a couple threads now, you seem to have a theme of dismissing others as having "outrage". This is not materially different from calling someone a "SJW" or dismissing something as "PC". It is just another ploy to dismiss folks without actually addressing the point.

If you don't like what folks have to say, that's fine. But the boilerplate dismissal isn't acceptable - make a relevant point, or take it elsewhere, please and thanks.

 

[Eubani]

So you're saying you don't think that the original descriptions for draconians in MC4 Monstrous Compendium Dragonlance Appendix (affiliate link), published in 1990, references any particular real-world ethnicity?



"Acts of racial violence were justified and encouraged through the emphasis on this stereotype of the Savage." -Laura Green, Negative Racial Stereotypes and Their Effect on Attitudes Toward African-Americans.



"As 'Black demons,' African American men are stereotyped as prone to criminality and violence and unable to fit into society." -Book review, Black demons: The media’s depiction of the African American male criminal stereotype.



"White Americans value self-reliance and object that blacks fail to demonstrate self-discipline." -Michèle Lamont, Who counts as “them?”: racism and virtue in the United States and France.

That's just the tip of the iceberg. While The Doom Brigade tried to walk back the essentialist language, its sequel, Draconian Measures, embraced racial nationalism by giving the draconians their own nation, Teyr. Because that's not racist in any way at all.

Just how hard did you have to hit that round peg to fit into the square hole you wanted it to fit in?

 

[Scott Christian]

So you're saying you don't think that the original descriptions for draconians in MC4 Monstrous Compendium Dragonlance Appendix (affiliate link), published in 1990, references any particular real-world ethnicity?



"Acts of racial violence were justified and encouraged through the emphasis on this stereotype of the Savage." -Laura Green, Negative Racial Stereotypes and Their Effect on Attitudes Toward African-Americans.



"As 'Black demons,' African American men are stereotyped as prone to criminality and violence and unable to fit into society." -Book review, Black demons: The media’s depiction of the African American male criminal stereotype.



"White Americans value self-reliance and object that blacks fail to demonstrate self-discipline." -Michèle Lamont, Who counts as “them?”: racism and virtue in the United States and France.

That's just the tip of the iceberg. While The Doom Brigade tried to walk back the essentialist language, its sequel, Draconian Measures, embraced racial nationalism by giving the draconians their own nation, Teyr. Because that's not racist in any way at all.

First off, I did not write the other three quotes you are referring to. For some reason, you placed them under my name. Please do not do that. I will respond to your statement that was a response to my quote, and here is how I shall reply:

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Literally - zero. How can you read my quote:

And that is your original point. Language is finite. All that happens is people run the same litmus test on language that they do with visual art. So the author must mix and match different negative language through history in order to pass the litmus. But no matter how it is done, you are correct, there will always be allusions to some writing in history. It is how much it mirrors a specific group that causes conflict.

and come away with me thinking the original descriptions of draconians was problematic?

 

[Remathilis]

In some ways I agree with your comment. That doesn't mean there isn't merit in questioning the mental underpinnings which created fantasy tropes. Whether correlation is real or imagined varies from case to case, and I do agree that there are times when people find what they want to find. But there's also, I believe, merit in exploring which cases are valid and which aren't -and why.

So here is my simple* test for that validity: show me the evidence that Asian women are claiming the depiction of elves is harming them. I want to see real voices of the afflicted claiming the specific harm done. We've had poc who have discussed the harm orcs and drow have done, and Roma who have discussed the harm of the a Vistani. Heck, the have been Asian voices who have been critical of D&D, but mostly about Oriental Adventures and hobgoblin armor, not elves demeaning Asian women. The threshold should be actual harm, not "sorta looks like it might harm, we should change it'.

Not all correlation is causation. Or as Freud once put it when questioned by a student about the phallic-shaped object he was about to put in his mouth, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."


* Realizing nothing is simple

 

[Alzrius]

First off, I did not write the other three quotes you are referring to. For some reason, you placed them under my name. Please do not do that.

Hm, I'm not showing them as being under your name; they're just quotes without an attribution at the top of the quote box, which was the intent: those quotes come from the MC appendix that I linked to. I didn't in any way mean to suggest that they were yours, and thought that was clear.

 

[Oofta]

Yes, the language should definitely be fixed.

This reminds me of the "everything purple" argument. Eventually, you run out of correlating humanoid factors that can be evil. It's all about how far can you diverge from real life history and have it be acceptable with everyone. Can someone make a dark skinned evil race? For some, if they give them one eye, a giant mouth, a horn, goat legs, and four arms, it is acceptable. For others, all it takes is white hair and red eyes. That's where purple comes in. If it is purple, since it has not real life connection, then it can be evil.

But that leads to language...

And that is your original point. Language is finite. All that happens is people run the same litmus test on language that they do with visual art. So the author must mix and match different negative language through history in order to pass the litmus. But no matter how it is done, you are correct, there will always be allusions to some writing in history. It is how much it mirrors a specific group that causes conflict.

Maybe there best bet is to have the races as stand alone proxies in the PHB. No description. Then describe places PC's can come from, and use those for the traits and abilities and skills. So everyplace is a mixture of dwarves, elves, tieflings, half-orcs, etc. It'll just be the culture they come from that determines what they get. Then you can go all out and have a crazy cannibalistic, militant, slave holding society and it doesn't matter - because all the races partake in it.

Yes, but ... then why even have different races? I mean, I probably do a crap job of it, but when I play non-human PCs or NPCs/cultures I try to make them at least a little bit different. Whether that's different perspectives on the passage of time or the value of material goods.

The problem is there's only so much room for that kind of differentiation. We could probably have, at most, a half dozen races that would encapsulate the majority of broad different types of behavior if we can't go into details. The differentiation becomes really, really fuzzy and IMHO kind of generic and boring. If we say all creatures have the same basic human morality then, then they become just humans with rubber masks like the vast majority of aliens on Star Wars/Trek.

I mean, let's face it. Monsters are stand-ins for various fears and, yes, prejudices. They're the thing that goes bump in the night (ghosts), our fear of death (zombies), the fear of the other that for whatever reason wants to tear down everything we hold dear (gnolls). Sometimes it's the fear of what we are capable of, the monster within (lycanthropes) or fear of bullies that are bigger than us (giants), or even the destructive unknown (aberrations). What we label and depict as evil is really just a reflection of what we fear in real life.

But if we just substitute gods, we're saying that religion makes people evil. If we substitute organizations then it's political affiliation. That, and D&D doesn't have overarching organizations. Eberron has The Church of the Silver Flame and The Order of the Emerald Claw but they wouldn't make a lot of sense in my home campaign. Ultimately though the last thing I want is for different "groups" to be associated with liberal vs conservative, real world religions depicted as the source of all evil.

So I don't think there is a perfect solution. My recommendation would be to have a big section in the DMG talking through different aspects of this topic, preferably with different viewpoints. Go back to reinforcing that the entries are just tendencies and only one aspect. Review and potentially change some of the language. Leave the politics and organization to each campaign setting.

Ultimately if any group, organization, species is cast in a bad light there will be correlation to real world prejudices.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I am just waiting for the outrage about the prejudice of only virgins being able to ride Unicorns, I am sure there is some sort of ism there.

I think we can see changing attitudes to sexual morality in D&D's descriptions of unicorn riders. Those changes are, in my view, a good thing.

1974 OD&D is explicit about virginity being a requirement: "Only a maiden (in the strictest sense of the term) of pure and noble heart may approach the fierce and elusive Unicorn." Holmes Basic (1977) uses very similar language: "Unicorns are fierce and elusive. Only a pure maiden (in the strictest sense of the term) can subdue and ride them."

Moldvay Expert D&D (1981) hints at it but isn't explicit: "Only a pure maiden can talk to or ride one."

In the AD&D 1e MM (1979) unicorns can only be ridden by "maids". AD&D 2e and D&D 3e use the words "maiden"/"maidens". "Maid" and "maiden" mean an unmarried girl or young woman.

D&D 4e and D&D 5e rightly do away with the idea altogether. D&D 5e MM:

When darkness and evil threaten to overwhelm the mortal world, the gods sometimes see fit to pair a unicorn mount with a champion. A paladin astride a unicorn is a sign of the gods' direct intervention in the affairs of the mortal realm... if the gods' champion falls from grace or turns from the cause of righteousness and good, the unicorn departs, never to return.​

 

[Hexmage-EN]

So you're saying you don't think that the original descriptions for draconians in MC4 Monstrous Compendium Dragonlance Appendix (affiliate link), published in 1990, references any particular real-world ethnicity?

Sivaks are savage, shapechanging draconians that are derived from the eggs of silver dragons.

Soft-spoken and coldblooded, no act of violence is too extreme for an Aurak.

Baaz live lawless, disorderly lives, utterly lacking in self-discipline.

Not really, no. Savage, violent, and lacking in self-discipline could be applied to anything.

I'll be real, I'd rather them explicitly write monsters as coded as medieval Europeans or colonialists or whatever than get rid of evil monsters. I know that Magic the Gathering with its Ixalan setting made the villains essentially vampire conquistadors.

Put some intelligent monsters in ramshackle villages that embody the worst aspects of medieval European life: filth in the streets, washing once a year, living in close proximity to filthy livestock, ridden with zoonotic diseases, highly superstitious and ignorant, compelled into service by self-serving lords that they are certain have been granted their privilege by divine right, etc.

Hobgoblins could be explicitly coded as the worst of the imperial Roman legionnaires, while orcs could be explicitly coded as the most brutal of vikings.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

Part of me wonders what this discussion would be like if 5E had kept the Primal power source from 4E instead of ditching everything. 4E, with its focus on "Points of Light", explicitly made societies of barbarians, druids, shamans, and wardens as examples of these Points of Light (the book "Primal Power" especially focused on this). There was a pantheon of primal spirits independent of the gods. Monsters weren't the only creatures to live in tribes; humans and elves and other creatures did, too.

I'm sure at least some of what was written about the Primal power source, the classes, and the pantheon of spirits wouldn't fly today. They'd probably need to make sure they keep it more in lines with European cultures to avoid criticisms of cultural appropriation, but I'm curious what it would look like if done right.