D&D 5E I thought WotC was removing biological morals?

[Faolyn]

What if WotC just decided to have all the evil gods start marking their followers just so we know which drow or orcs or whatever are Chaotic Evil and which ones are chill?

That seems... really counterproductive of those gods, pinning a giant target on their worshiper like that.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

That seems... really counterproductive of those gods, pinning a giant target on their worshiper like that.

From a lore perspective, yeah. From a gaming perspective, it changes the focus of "probably okay to fight to the death" from being based on the kind of creature something is to if they have their god's unique "this is one of my Chaotic Evil followers" symbol supernaturally emblazoned on their very flesh.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

If 40-50% of orcs are chaotic evil and the creatures “tend toward a given alignment” then the rest are probably NE or CN with a few N, LE and CG outliers, so it”s probably ok to bash their skulls in.

Occasionally you might kill a CG orc by mistake, but you’ll probably never know so I wouldn’t worry too much.

 

[Cadence]

That seems... really counterproductive of those gods, pinning a giant target on their worshiper like that.

The real world genocidal nations' armies wore uniforms. Sauron's orcs had a white hand imprinted on them. And if they're really chaotic evil it's not like I expect great planning. Maybe the sign of their evil is designed to cause fear and increase chaos at the sight of them. (And if you have just one that's ever caught without it on them everyone looking for an excuse will assume it about all the other unmarked ones anyway).

 

[mrpopstar]

Since I was just reminded elsewhere this exists, what's the general feeling on the new lore that drow who worship Lolth have supernaturally-occurring markings on their skin?

Not the craziest idea, but maybe those markings could be red like their already marked red eyes as opposed to what looks to be symmetrical vitiligo on black skin.

What if WotC just decided to have all the evil gods start marking their followers just so we know which drow or orcs or whatever are Chaotic Evil and which ones are chill? Maybe Gruumsh could also expand his followers from just orcs to a more diverse group including humans and ogres and cyclopes and such instead of just being the orc god.

An expanded following for Gruumsh is welcome enough.

 

[Charlaquin]

Since I was just reminded elsewhere this exists, what's the general feeling on the new lore that drow who worship Lolth have supernaturally-occurring markings on their skin?

View attachment 142045

What if WotC just decided to have all the evil gods start marking their followers just so we know which drow or orcs or whatever are Chaotic Evil and which ones are chill? Maybe Gruumsh could also expand his followers from just orcs to a more diverse group including humans and ogres and cyclopes and such instead of just being the orc god.

It’s… less bad than dark skin being the thing that visually marks them as evil, but… I’m still not keen on it.

 

[Mirtek]

Secondly, that argument assumes that everyone is using the same gods. If someone doesn't use Gruumsh or Lolth then the idea that orcs or drow are evil because of those gods is useless.

If someone diverges so much too use his own deities, than diverging as little as to change/ignore one little line in the statblock is the least required effort.

 

[Aldarc]

And there it is.

It was always going to get to this point. It wasn't enough to say "there are also good orcs" but also how many good orcs there are and where they are. There has to be villages of good orcs, goblin shopkeepers, gnoll city guards, hobgoblin farmers, etc. Expand that beyond humanoids and you suddenly have harpy postal delivery, minotaur dock laborers, medusa stonemasons, gargoyle priesthoods, vampire innkeepers and ogre teamsters. At best, you have Ravnica or Droaam from Eberron. At worst, you have made every race basically humans in outlook. Either way, you have put a stake in the heart of classic "Keep on the Borderlands" style play and will force every classic setting back to redesign.

It was never going to be about removing alignment from the stat block, it was always going to end with a massive rewrite of the game design and its settings.

See, there it is indeed! Here is an example of the sort of bad faith, slippery slope argument that I was talking about in the other thread. And look! This slippery slope even has your name on it too!

Apologies if this has been answered.

If there is no "alignment" then what is distilled evil? What is "free will"? Are they not able to decide their mission or not able to decide how to carry it out either? Are angels "distilled good"? Without free will does that mean no fallen angels?

What makes something supernatural? Is that anything without the humanoid descriptor? Or do they need to be extra-planar? Do they need to not breed in the "usual way"? Not breed in the usual way on the prime material plane? [Edit: In a lot of books and tales in our world, are elves and gnomes considered pretty supernatural?]

If there is no alignment and concepts of distilled evil, then what are other non-D&D games that lack alignment but also have evil, supernatural creatures?

Which to me is just "fluff makes it okay". I mean, it's fine. You do what makes sense to you and your game. Different people draw the line at different places. If any particular creature has been created by a malevolent being and not naturally evolved I see no reason they can't be just as inherently evil. For that matter, I don't think that a species that has evolved under different circumstances or different origin than humans would think like humans or share our sense of morality.

Consider that part of the problem with the recurring cast of monstrous humanoids that preoccupies these discussions is precisely the whole "the fluff is problematic and rooted in real world racist rhetoric." Fluff is a relevant part of the discussion, for better or worse. Is it any surprise that "fluff makes it okay," when also "the fluff makes it a problem"?

 

[Azuresun]

Nobody seems to touch this at all, as if its not relevant and its all just 'biological determinism = racist and bad'.

The creation story has specific beings, evil beings even, creating these various species. We dont live in a world where we can demonstrate that God(s) are real, and manifest actual power, impacting if they wish, daily life.

That DOES happen in some (note the SOME) settings, and it doesnt get addressed by anyone for some reason.

I think the "Gods as abusive parents who use their children as tools to advance their divine grudges." angle that 5e started with is brilliant, but nobody ever seems to acknowledge it exists.

Since I was just reminded elsewhere this exists, what's the general feeling on the new lore that drow who worship Lolth have supernaturally-occurring markings on their skin?

View attachment 142045

What if WotC just decided to have all the evil gods start marking their followers just so we know which drow or orcs or whatever are Chaotic Evil and which ones are chill? Maybe Gruumsh could also expand his followers from just orcs to a more diverse group including humans and ogres and cyclopes and such instead of just being the orc god.

OK, so this has been bugging me for a while, so I'm going to ask it here:

Why is it ALWAYS orcs and drow? Why is nobody agitating for representation of good ogres, or duergar who don't worship Laduguer?

 

[Mecheon]

It was never going to be about removing alignment from the stat block, it was always going to end with a massive rewrite of the game design and its settings.

I've been screaming "D&D's settings are dumb when you even apply a bit of brain power to them" for years now and no one listens.

If the settings don't work because some races have free will to make their own choices, then that's a problem with the root setting

The thing is, half of those things you mention are already a FR, Eberron and Mystara thing at the moment since ages ago. So its hardly a slope, its moreso "Maybe the worldbuilding isn't always the best and we can afford to look at it, see what works, rip out what doesn't, and don't put stuff on a pedastal just because it was written by someone else" and that's going to get me dumping on Dragonlance for another few hours.

Why is it ALWAYS orcs and drow? Why is nobody agitating for representation of good ogres, or duergar who don't worship Laduguer?

Because its always orcs and drow that get slapped with the worst brushes initially. Which is, saying something.

Plus Duergar are just "Dwarves but more stubborn" when you get to it and not as "Oh man 180 flip!" as Drow ended up