D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[Bill Zebub]

People don't necessarily "need" anything, they just gotta "want" it, since this is a game for fun, they can ask for options that'll make the game more enjoyable for them. If they want to be powerful or play in a hard campaign, it's completely reasonable to want the ASIs to match their class.

And I've said several times now, it's really about what the other options are.

I don't have any particular desire to roleplay one race over another; rather I build my characters for their collection of abilities, and then I figure out their personality. If the mechanics leads me to end up with a halfling or a goliath or a tortle, then I'll start to think about how their personality and decision making are influenced by their race and background.

So when I'm making a character, with no desire for a particular race, I look at what the package of abilities looks like. And it's not that the additional +1 is just the greatest thing imaginable and is absolutely necessary, it's just that there's no other package that I find as attractive. And, again, that's largely because of vHumans: racial abilities are rarely as interesting to me as feats.

 

[Scribe]

Sorry* but I read this several times and I'm not following the part in bold. Can you clarify/elaborate?

*that's in the apologetic not ironic sense.

As has been noted, people feel compelled to pick their race based on ASI. They feel that Floating is a meaningful change in effectiveness, and the guides all reflect that.

Therefore, it's a meaningful change in balance, and what existed before was with never balanced, and without updates to racial abilities it cannot be balanced now.

This also completely ignores the Variant and Custom (and rolling stats!) all of which are potentially way stronger than Array + Fixed ASI.

 

[Lyxen]

If I'm following the above argument, you are saying that powergaming and cooperative roleplaying are mutually exclusive, or at least that they conflict. Is that correct?

Powergaming is all about boosting one's own character. I'm not saying that that it prevents being really cooperative, but at the bottom there is that edge of competition that will surface at some point in time.

 

[le Redoutable]

If I'om following the above argument, you are saying that powergaming and cooperative roleplaying are stzrs exclusive, or at least that they conflict. Is that correct?
(And maybe my story about computer games clouded the issue. First, computer games are not TTRPGs, of course. Also, when I said "solo" mode I didn't mean without other players, I meant that you're only controlling one character rather than controlling your own character plus a number of NPCs, which is how many computer RPGs work.)

Solo Monsters are tanks

 

[Lyxen]

Here's something that powergamers and those like @Lyxen don't seem to understand. We all optimize. All optimization is, is choosing the best option to achieve your goal. For powergamers that's typically combat, but it also applies to literally every other goal. Someone whose goal is to be good at the social pillar is optimizing when he takes social skills and feats. Someone who loves roleplay and theme is optimizing when they pick something that fits their character concept, even if it's weak in combat or another pillar.

It's usually about combat, but I've seen people absolutely optimise for social, for example, which is also a pain because that guy will expect all NPCs to bend to his will and will ask why the DC is so high that he cannot convince the king to sell him his crown.

If @Lyxen is correct and optimization = powergaming, then we are literally all powergamers.

No, we are not. Sometimes it's really about playing an interesting character, for example an orc bard (with racial ASIs) dedicated to Selune or a halfling warlock. But considering your general view about the game, I don't expect that you can understand this.

 

[LadyElect]

Not all the guides have been updated, but have a look at this one for example. Quite a few of the races are very much improved by Tasha, and the best options are now all from customised origin (Tortle, for example), whereas the previously strong human variant is no longer interesting, which is extremely significative.

Is the issue here the power gap being increased or the 'top level' shifting away from the depicted archetypes (which I'd understand as a complaint)? I'm also somewhat confused because variant Human retains its strength and is only impacted relatively. Plus, the interest in that as a race tends to fall in its similarly customizable (and powerful) starting point to begin with.

But to play into the unusual combination possibilities, something like a Halfling Druid listed here shows its subraces going from "Bad" to "Good", remaining "Bad", and then even dropping from "Fantastic" to "OK". Surely providing the floating ASIs for those options aren't an illustration of your argument here. Or is it just the belief that opening it up therefore wouldn't show any increase in play?

 

[Maxperson]

It's usually about combat, but I've seen people absolutely optimise for social, for example, which is also a pain because that guy will expect all NPCs to bend to his will and will ask why the DC is so high that he cannot convince the king to sell him his crown.


No, we are not. Sometimes it's really about playing an interesting character, for example an orc bard (with racial ASIs) dedicated to Selune or a halfling warlock.

Yes, and when you pick things that move you towards that goal, you are still optimizing.

But considering your general view about the game, I don't expect that you can understand this.

 

[Bill Zebub]

See here.

Oh oh oh, now I think I understand what you are saying. Looking through that link, there are some new "best" races for warlock, such as Kobold and Warforged, if you are using floating ASIs.

So the question is, do all the optimizers switch from Tiefling warlock to Kobold warlock, or do they not care about race and pick other things like halflings?

You, obviously, think it will be the former (they'll all play kobolds and warforged) because of what you think the optimizer mindset is.

I, obviously, think some people will do that, but that we will see much greater diversity, because of what my own mindset is.

I haven't started any new campaigns since Tasha's, so I unfortunately don't have the evidence you are looking for. I'm a little startled that would accept as evidence somebody posting in a forum to say, "Yeah I'm an optimizer and made a halfling warlock", but maybe that will happen and I'll guess we'll see what your reaction is.

Until we see new D&DBeyond data we won't know for sure.

 

[Bill Zebub]

As has been noted, people feel compelled to pick their race based on ASI. They feel that Floating is a meaningful change in effectiveness, and the guides all reflect that.

Therefore, it's a meaningful change in balance, and what existed before was with never balanced, and without updates to racial abilities it cannot be balanced now.

So I think what you are doing is refuting the argument that floating ASIs will reduce imbalance. Is that right? If so, I don't think anybody is making the argument that it will. Rather we are saying that it will encourage more creative race/class choices, without increasing imbalance.

In other words, even though it's the optimizers asking for this change, we are asking for it not to make more powerful characters, but to make equally powerful characters with a greater variety of races.

This also completely ignores the Variant and Custom (and rolling stats!) all of which are potentially way stronger than Array + Fixed ASI.

Agreed.

 

[Lyxen]

Oh oh oh, now I think I understand what you are saying. Looking through that link, there are some new "best" races for warlock, such as Kobold and Warforged, if you are using floating ASIs.

Exactly, and whereas, before, Human Variants were often considered the strongest, and with good reasons, there are now cases in almost every class where the racial powers are stronger than a feat. So power has definitely shifted up.

So the question is, do all the optimizers switch from Tiefling warlock to Kobold warlock, or do they not care about race and pick other things like halflings?

That is the exact question, which is why I'm still waiting to see a character created with floating ASIs which is not one of these new stronger choices.

You, obviously, think it will be the former (they'll all play kobolds and warforged) because of what you think the optimizer mindset is.

Not all, but it would be refreshing to see at least one...