D&D 5E Shadow Sorcerer + Warcaster + Polearm Master + Eye of Darkness = Is It insane?

[Hohige]

My point is, the shadow sorcerer combo (Hound and everything else) works well enough without devoting 2 melee focused feats.

IMO the feats provide a benefit that's just too fringe to justify 2 full ASIs and the shadow sorcerer's schtick works just as well without them.

Warcaster is really really useful feat for every situation, especially that Sorcerers are con proficient and get free spell oportunity attack. It's not melee focused feat, not even close. Advantage on concentration checks is just, amazing.

PAM turns the Sorcerer better melee than melee character.

So, yes. It's effectively better caster than casters (free advantage for everything, attack rolls, disadvantage against your spells), metamagic and extra hound damage and prone condition and the hound's oportunity attack.

PAM+Warcaster Shadow Sorcerer just burst a melee enemy easily.
Also, With Darkness you can freely move around the map to better position.

That's why It's insane.

 

[TheSword]

Nah, Darkness is concentration so once your unconscious body hits the floor your party will see it.

The real question is, are they so irritated with your schtick by this point that they just leave you lying there!

Darkness being concentration makes it even more circumstantial, but good point!

 

[TheSword]

PAM turns the Sorcerer better melee than melee character.

Not better melee than a melee character with PAM

It gives you one extra attack (possibly attack spell) per round. Using your reaction to do so. Let’s not burst a blood vessel. It ain’t that good. Particularly when sorcerers have lots of good uses for a reaction without having to take a feat.

 

[Hohige]

Not better melee than a melee character with PAM

It gives you one extra attack (possibly attack spell) per round. Using your reaction to do so. Let’s not burst a blood vessel. It ain’t that good. Particularly when sorcerers have lots of good uses for a reaction without having to take a feat.

I disagree...
It's better than a melee character with PAM. It's crazy, but true.

 

[Mort]

Warcaster is really really useful feat for every situation, especially that Sorcerers are con proficient and get free spell oportunity attack.

That's debatable.

Warcaster is great for some melee builds, especially if they tend to have their hands full - like sword and board types. The advantage on Con is also nice.

but it's a steep price for a character (such as a full caster) that wants to stay out of melee anyway.

PAM turns the Sorcerer better melee than melee character.

You only get one opportunity attack per round. If you take it, you can't shield or absorb elements or counterspell. That's a steep cost for a caster and rarely worth 1 atttack.

PAM is great for martials because they can really leverage a large amount of attacks with it. Casters have a much harder time doing that.

Also remember that PAM doesn't stop the opponent, you'll still likely get hit (even at disadvantage a much likelier outcome than a high AC martial, bladesinger or even dragon sorcerer) and you DON'T have the HP to take that like a martial can!

So it's a tactic, a possibly good tactic - but not insane (and it's risky).

So, yes. It's effectively better caster than casters (free advantage for everything, attack rolls, disadvantage against your spells), metamagic and extra hound damage and prone condition and the hound's oportunity attack.

PAM+Warcaster Shadow Sorcerer just burst a melee enemy easily.

That's why It's insane.

In addition to everything else, it's pretty resource intensive - a 7th level sorcerer will get the darkness up, summon 1 hound and then have 2 sorcery points for the rest of the fight (and remaining fights until a long rest) - that's A LOT of resources to blow.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Warcaster is really really useful feat for every situation, especially that Sorcerers are con proficient and get free spell oportunity attack.

If anything the constitution save proficiency makes Warcaster less useful for a typical Sorcerer than for the average full caster, because Sorcerers don't particularly need advantage on concentration saves. Most concentration checks end up just being the baseline 10, or else are outside the range of what you will be able to make, with or without advantage. Advantage on it is certainly nice, but for the average Sorcerer it is probably not worth forgoing a Charisma boost.

I disagree...
It's better than a melee character with PAM. It's crazy, but true.

If you want to make your point you have to actually explain why you think a counterintuitive and highly debatable claim is true, not just assert it to be true without making any arguments.

 

[Hohige]

That's debatable.

Warcaster is great for some melee builds, especially if they tend to have their hands full - like sword and board types. The advantage on Con is also nice.

but it's a steep price for a character (such as a full caster) that wants to stay out of melee anyway.


You only get one opportunity attack per round. If you take it, you can't shield or absorb elements or counterspell. That's a steep cost for a caster and rarely worth 1 atttack.

PAM is great for martials because they can really leverage a large amount of attacks with it. Casters have a much harder time doing that.

Also remember that PAM doesn't stop the opponent, you'll still likely get hit (even at disadvantage a much likelier outcome than a high AC martial, bladesinger or even dragon sorcerer) and you DON'T have the HP to take that like a martial can!

So it's a tactic, a possibly good tactic - but not insane (and it's risky).


In addition to everything else, it's pretty resource intensive - a 7th level sorcerer will get the darkness up, summon 1 hound and then have 2 sorcery points for the rest of the fight (and remaining fights until a long rest) - that's A LOT of resources to blow.

The melee comes close enough.
The Sorcerer uses his PAM+Warcaster Spell Oportunity attack, (Charm Person with disadvantage) or just empowered 5 rays of scorching ray with advantage.
Next turn, just sleep level 2.
the melee character has disadvantage against your the Sorcerer that is 16 AC.
Or just move, dash and quicken empowered fireball. lol.
Or just The Hound + Fear with disadvantage and starts the massacre.
Or just, Quicken Polymorph into Giant Ape (+9 attack roll) and attack (It's a lot of damage) + the hound with Pack Tatics..(It's effectively 45 damage + 10 the hound per turn)

Yes, It's better melee than melee character.

 

[TheSword]

The melee comes close enough.
The Sorcerer uses his PAM+Warcaster Spell Oportunity attack, (Charm Person with disadvantage) or just empowered 5 rays of scorching ray with advantage.
Next turn, just sleep level 2.
the melee character has disadvantage against your the Sorcerer that is 16 AC.
Or just move, dash and quicken empowered fireball. lol.
Or just The Hound + Fear with disadvantage and starts the massacre.
Or just, Quicken Polymorph into Giant Ape and attack (It's a lot of damage) + the hound with Pack Tatics.

Yes, It's better melee than melee character.

Cast fear or polymorph and you’ve just lost your darkness. So what are the advantages again?

What if the foe who enters your darkness isn’t the same one who you targeted with the Hound? You’re a bit screwed then.

There are lots of ways of getting disadvantage on attacks that are better darkness screwing your allies. No chance to enjoy the beautiful non-concentration spell mirror image when you’re in the pitch black.

You do understand that that empowered 5 bolt scorching ray spell is a once per day job right? If we’re talking once per day, the fighter just used action surge and blew all their battle master points. You can’t beat melee characters in melee in 5e. Concentration put a stop to that.

 

[Hohige]

Cast fear or polymorph and you’ve just lost your darkness. So what are the advantages again?

What if the foe who enters your darkness isn’t the same one who you targeted with the Hound? You’re a bit screwed then.

There are lots of ways of getting disadvantage on attacks that are better darkness screwing your allies. No chance to the beautiful non-concentration spell mirror image when you’re in the pitch black.

You do understand that that empowered 5 bolt scorching ray spell is a once per day job right?

It's just one possibilities . The Giant Ape + The Hound is better melee than melee.
PAM+Warcaster is better melee than PAM melee.
You can burst more than 90 damage on a single round. Did you noticed it?

 

[Mort]

The melee comes close enough.
The Sorcerer uses his PAM+Warcaster Spell Oportunity attack, (Charm Person with disadvantage)

Charm person during combat is highly unlikely to work all that well even at disadvantage.

or just empowered 5 rays of scorching ray with advantage.

You're blowing a 4th level spell on 1 opponent and doing a maximum of 10d6 (assuming they all hit) to 1 opponent - well ok.

Next turn, just sleep level 2.

By 7th level sleep is highly suboptimal - you probably swapped it out for something else!

the melee character has disadvantage against your the Sorcerer that is 16 AC.

16 AC by 7th level? If the monster is rushing you, he'll probably hit that most of the time - even at disadvantage. Remember, you can't cast shield.

Or just move, dash and quicken empowered fireball. lol.

Sure, 3rd level spell - decent resource cost and situational if your already in the middle of a fight.

Or just The Hound + Fear with disadvantage and starts the massacre.

Another HUGE resource cost - 4th level spell.

Or just, Quicken Polymorph into Giant Ape and attack (It's a lot of damage) + the hound with Pack Tatics.

Yes, It's better melee than melee character.

How are you quickening a 4th level spell with 2 spell points?
Or did you not bother with the darkness this time - but then you're now out spell points, can't cast and REALLY reliant on concentration saves (the giant ape bit is usually better on others so there isn't a con save EVERY time they get hit).

Again, interesting schtick, can certainly see trying it - but it's not insane.