• COMING SOON! -- Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition! Level up your 5E game! The standalone advanced 5E tabletop RPG adds depth and diversity to the game you love!
log in or register to remove this ad

 

D&D 5E Shadow Sorcerer + Warcaster + Polearm Master + Eye of Darkness = Is It insane?

Hohige

Explorer
My point is, the shadow sorcerer combo (Hound and everything else) works well enough without devoting 2 melee focused feats.

IMO the feats provide a benefit that's just too fringe to justify 2 full ASIs and the shadow sorcerer's schtick works just as well without them.
Warcaster is really really useful feat for every situation, especially that Sorcerers are con proficient and get free spell oportunity attack. It's not melee focused feat, not even close. Advantage on concentration checks is just, amazing.

PAM turns the Sorcerer better melee than melee character.

So, yes. It's effectively better caster than casters (free advantage for everything, attack rolls, disadvantage against your spells), metamagic and extra hound damage and prone condition and the hound's oportunity attack.

PAM+Warcaster Shadow Sorcerer just burst a melee enemy easily.
Also, With Darkness you can freely move around the map to better position.

That's why It's insane.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

TheSword

Legend
Nah, Darkness is concentration so once your unconscious body hits the floor your party will see it.

The real question is, are they so irritated with your schtick by this point that they just leave you lying there!
Darkness being concentration makes it even more circumstantial, but good point!
 

TheSword

Legend
PAM turns the Sorcerer better melee than melee character.

Not better melee than a melee character with PAM 🤣

It gives you one extra attack (possibly attack spell) per round. Using your reaction to do so. Let’s not burst a blood vessel. It ain’t that good. Particularly when sorcerers have lots of good uses for a reaction without having to take a feat.
 

Hohige

Explorer
Not better melee than a melee character with PAM 🤣

It gives you one extra attack (possibly attack spell) per round. Using your reaction to do so. Let’s not burst a blood vessel. It ain’t that good. Particularly when sorcerers have lots of good uses for a reaction without having to take a feat.
I disagree...
It's better than a melee character with PAM. It's crazy, but true.
 

Mort

Legend
Warcaster is really really useful feat for every situation, especially that Sorcerers are con proficient and get free spell oportunity attack.
That's debatable.

Warcaster is great for some melee builds, especially if they tend to have their hands full - like sword and board types. The advantage on Con is also nice.

but it's a steep price for a character (such as a full caster) that wants to stay out of melee anyway.

PAM turns the Sorcerer better melee than melee character.
You only get one opportunity attack per round. If you take it, you can't shield or absorb elements or counterspell. That's a steep cost for a caster and rarely worth 1 atttack.

PAM is great for martials because they can really leverage a large amount of attacks with it. Casters have a much harder time doing that.

Also remember that PAM doesn't stop the opponent, you'll still likely get hit (even at disadvantage a much likelier outcome than a high AC martial, bladesinger or even dragon sorcerer) and you DON'T have the HP to take that like a martial can!

So it's a tactic, a possibly good tactic - but not insane (and it's risky).

So, yes. It's effectively better caster than casters (free advantage for everything, attack rolls, disadvantage against your spells), metamagic and extra hound damage and prone condition and the hound's oportunity attack.

PAM+Warcaster Shadow Sorcerer just burst a melee enemy easily.

That's why It's insane.
In addition to everything else, it's pretty resource intensive - a 7th level sorcerer will get the darkness up, summon 1 hound and then have 2 sorcery points for the rest of the fight (and remaining fights until a long rest) - that's A LOT of resources to blow.
 

Warcaster is really really useful feat for every situation, especially that Sorcerers are con proficient and get free spell oportunity attack.
If anything the constitution save proficiency makes Warcaster less useful for a typical Sorcerer than for the average full caster, because Sorcerers don't particularly need advantage on concentration saves. Most concentration checks end up just being the baseline 10, or else are outside the range of what you will be able to make, with or without advantage. Advantage on it is certainly nice, but for the average Sorcerer it is probably not worth forgoing a Charisma boost.

I disagree...
It's better than a melee character with PAM. It's crazy, but true.
If you want to make your point you have to actually explain why you think a counterintuitive and highly debatable claim is true, not just assert it to be true without making any arguments.
 

Hohige

Explorer
That's debatable.

Warcaster is great for some melee builds, especially if they tend to have their hands full - like sword and board types. The advantage on Con is also nice.

but it's a steep price for a character (such as a full caster) that wants to stay out of melee anyway.


You only get one opportunity attack per round. If you take it, you can't shield or absorb elements or counterspell. That's a steep cost for a caster and rarely worth 1 atttack.

PAM is great for martials because they can really leverage a large amount of attacks with it. Casters have a much harder time doing that.

Also remember that PAM doesn't stop the opponent, you'll still likely get hit (even at disadvantage a much likelier outcome than a high AC martial, bladesinger or even dragon sorcerer) and you DON'T have the HP to take that like a martial can!

So it's a tactic, a possibly good tactic - but not insane (and it's risky).


In addition to everything else, it's pretty resource intensive - a 7th level sorcerer will get the darkness up, summon 1 hound and then have 2 sorcery points for the rest of the fight (and remaining fights until a long rest) - that's A LOT of resources to blow.
The melee comes close enough.
The Sorcerer uses his PAM+Warcaster Spell Oportunity attack, (Charm Person with disadvantage) or just empowered 5 rays of scorching ray with advantage.
Next turn, just sleep level 2.
the melee character has disadvantage against your the Sorcerer that is 16 AC.
Or just move, dash and quicken empowered fireball. lol.
Or just The Hound + Fear with disadvantage and starts the massacre.
Or just, Quicken Polymorph into Giant Ape (+9 attack roll) and attack (It's a lot of damage) + the hound with Pack Tatics..(It's effectively 45 damage + 10 the hound per turn)

Yes, It's better melee than melee character.
 
Last edited:

TheSword

Legend
The melee comes close enough.
The Sorcerer uses his PAM+Warcaster Spell Oportunity attack, (Charm Person with disadvantage) or just empowered 5 rays of scorching ray with advantage.
Next turn, just sleep level 2.
the melee character has disadvantage against your the Sorcerer that is 16 AC.
Or just move, dash and quicken empowered fireball. lol.
Or just The Hound + Fear with disadvantage and starts the massacre.
Or just, Quicken Polymorph into Giant Ape and attack (It's a lot of damage) + the hound with Pack Tatics.

Yes, It's better melee than melee character.
Cast fear or polymorph and you’ve just lost your darkness. So what are the advantages again?

What if the foe who enters your darkness isn’t the same one who you targeted with the Hound? You’re a bit screwed then.

There are lots of ways of getting disadvantage on attacks that are better darkness screwing your allies. No chance to enjoy the beautiful non-concentration spell mirror image when you’re in the pitch black.

You do understand that that empowered 5 bolt scorching ray spell is a once per day job right? If we’re talking once per day, the fighter just used action surge and blew all their battle master points. You can’t beat melee characters in melee in 5e. Concentration put a stop to that.
 
Last edited:

Hohige

Explorer
Cast fear or polymorph and you’ve just lost your darkness. So what are the advantages again?

What if the foe who enters your darkness isn’t the same one who you targeted with the Hound? You’re a bit screwed then.

There are lots of ways of getting disadvantage on attacks that are better darkness screwing your allies. No chance to the beautiful non-concentration spell mirror image when you’re in the pitch black.

You do understand that that empowered 5 bolt scorching ray spell is a once per day job right?
It's just one possibilities . The Giant Ape + The Hound is better melee than melee.
PAM+Warcaster is better melee than PAM melee.
You can burst more than 90 damage on a single round. Did you noticed it?
 

Mort

Legend
The melee comes close enough.
The Sorcerer uses his PAM+Warcaster Spell Oportunity attack, (Charm Person with disadvantage)
Charm person during combat is highly unlikely to work all that well even at disadvantage.

or just empowered 5 rays of scorching ray with advantage.

You're blowing a 4th level spell on 1 opponent and doing a maximum of 10d6 (assuming they all hit) to 1 opponent - well ok.

Next turn, just sleep level 2.
By 7th level sleep is highly suboptimal - you probably swapped it out for something else!

the melee character has disadvantage against your the Sorcerer that is 16 AC.
16 AC by 7th level? If the monster is rushing you, he'll probably hit that most of the time - even at disadvantage. Remember, you can't cast shield.

Or just move, dash and quicken empowered fireball. lol.
Sure, 3rd level spell - decent resource cost and situational if your already in the middle of a fight.

Or just The Hound + Fear with disadvantage and starts the massacre.
Another HUGE resource cost - 4th level spell.

Or just, Quicken Polymorph into Giant Ape and attack (It's a lot of damage) + the hound with Pack Tatics.

Yes, It's better melee than melee character.
How are you quickening a 4th level spell with 2 spell points?
Or did you not bother with the darkness this time - but then you're now out spell points, can't cast and REALLY reliant on concentration saves (the giant ape bit is usually better on others so there isn't a con save EVERY time they get hit).

Again, interesting schtick, can certainly see trying it - but it's not insane.
 

Hohige

Explorer
Charm person during combat is highly unlikely to work all that well even at disadvantage.



You're blowing a 4th level spell on 1 opponent and doing a maximum of 10d6 (assuming they all hit) to 1 opponent - well ok.


By 7th level sleep is highly suboptimal - you probably swapped it out for something else!


16 AC by 7th level? If the monster is rushing you, he'll probably hit that most of the time - even at disadvantage. Remember, you can't cast shield.


Sure, 3rd level spell - decent resource cost and situational if your already in the middle of a fight.


Another HUGE resource cost - 4th level spell.


How are you quickening a 4th level spell with 2 spell points?
Or did you not bother with the darkness this time - but then you're now out spell points, can't cast and REALLY reliant on concentration saves (the giant ape bit is usually better on others so there isn't a con save EVERY time they get hit).

Again, interesting schtick, can certainly see trying it - but it's not insane.
Stardard Sleep is suboptimal, we know, but, lets see again.
With PAM+Warcaster combo, it's 100% chance of working. You reduce the enemy's hp with Spell Oportunity attack and then, sleep him. (humanoids).
A level 4 Sleep is average 58 HP. It's 100% nice your damage from Spell Oportunity attack.
a standard fighter level 7 has average 60 HP. Reducing 20 or more with your spell oportunity attack is 100% chance of sleep works against it. The fight is over.

Remember that Sorcerer can swap spells slots for sorcery points.

Fear isn't a level 4 spell slot.

Darkness 2 sp that you regain instantly with flexible casting.

so, you have 7 SP free.

Quickening to turn into a Giant Ape + The Hound is just too powerful.




That premisse is bad because works for all spellcasters. Every leveled spell has a cost.
 
Last edited:

Mort

Legend
It's just one possibilities . The Giant Ape + The Hound is better melee than melee.

PAM+Warcaster is better melee than PAM melee.
You can burst more than 90 damage on a single round. Did you noticed it?

If you think that's better than a 7th level martial character can do, you haven't seen an optimized martial in action - and most builds won't blow all of their resources doing it!

Unlike 3e, where a caster could trounce a martial character at his own game and still have plenty to spare for his own schtick, 5e has sqaushed that. A caster CAN match a martial in melee, but it's resource intensive and unsustainable over a proper adventuring day.
 

Hohige

Explorer
If you think that's better than a 7th level martial character can do, you haven't seen an optimized martial in action - and most builds won't blow all of their resources doing it!
I don't know if they can do it, but, It's just extra for standard shadow sorcerer shenanigans.
 

TheSword

Legend
Stardard Sleep is suboptimal, we know, but, lets see again.
With PAM+Warcaster combo, it's 100% chance of working. You reduce the enemy's hp with Spell Oportunity attack and then, sleep him. (humanoids).
A level 4 Sleep is average 58 HP. It's 100% nice your damage from Spell Oportunity attack.
a standard fighter level 7 has average 60 HP. Reducing 20 or more with your spell oportunity attack is 100% chance of sleep works against it. The fight is over.

Remember that Sorcerer can swap spells slots for sorcery points.

Fear isn't a level 4 spell slot.

Darkness 2 sp that you regain instantly with flexible casting.

so, you have 7 SP free.

Quickening to turn into a Giant Ape + The Hound is just too powerful.




That premisse is bad because works for all spellcasters. Every leveled spell has a cost.
Wait, you haven’t got spells left to turn to sorcery points because you splurged them all in a couple of turns with PAM.

Sleep is a terrible spell for high level combat. Absolutely terrible because a single point of damage from their ally wakes them up. Better to just deal the damage.

Sleep also can’t be empowered it’s 49 average hp not 59. It also can’t be used for a Warcaster attack as it affects multiple foes.

I also hope you understand a 7th level fighter is likely to be somewhere around a CR 2 challenge. Considering a 5HD thug is CR1
 

Hohige

Explorer
Wait, you haven’t got spells left to turn to sorcery points because you splurged them all in a couple of turns with PAM.

Sleep is a terrible spell for high level combat. Absolutely terrible because a single point of damage from their ally wakes them up. Better to just deal the damage.

Sleep also can’t be empowered it’s 49 average hp not 59. It also can’t be used for a Warcaster attack as it affects multiple foes.

I also hope you understand a 7th level fighter is likely to be somewhere around a CR 2 challenge. Considering a 5HD thug is CR1
Spending Sorcery Points or not is situational, if you want do burst or not. It works very very similar to sorcadins.

I usually defeat mages with sleep combo.
Empowered Booming Blade / Firebolt for average 12 damage + Quicken upcasted Sleep.
It certainly is useful and strong, but you need know the right moment to cast it.
 
Last edited:

Mort

Legend
Wait, you haven’t got spells left to turn to sorcery points because you splurged them all in a couple of turns with PAM.

Sleep is a terrible spell for high level combat. Absolutely terrible because a single point of damage from their ally wakes them up. Better to just deal the damage.

Sleep also can’t be empowered it’s 49 average hp not 59. It also can’t be used for a Warcaster attack as it affects multiple foes.

I also hope you understand a 7th level fighter is likely to be somewhere around a CR 2 challenge. Considering a 5HD thug is CR1

The thing about this the PAM and Warcaster feat on a sorcerer - it's single target.

I've found sorcerers do MUCH better when they let the martials deal with single targets and focus on multiples - either for buffing or for damage/incapacitation.

Truly effective sorcerer tactics at 7th level:

Twin haste on 2 party martials for 3 sorcerer points you now have 2 seriously buffed party members AND you can still cast non-concentration spells. simple and effective.

or

Open with Hypnotic Pattern and use careful spell as necessary. Hypnotic pattern is a great spell but it's a pain to position in many circumstances because it's not party friendly. Careful spell does not eliminate damage on AoE damage spells so is only semi useful for spells like fireball. Combine these 2 though and for 1 sorcery point you get the absolute best of both worlds - only the evoker can pull the same stunt.

So again, interesting tactic - but I guess I just object to it being placed on such a high pedestal.
 
Last edited:

Hohige

Explorer
The thing about this the PAM and Warcaster feat on a sorcerer - it's single target.

I've found sorcerers do MUCH better when they let the martials deal with single targets and focus on multiples - either for buffing or for damage/incapacitation.

Truly effective sorcerer tactics at 7th level:

Twin haste on 2 party martials for 3 sorcerer points you now have 2 seriously buffed party members AND you can still cast non-concentration spells. simple and effective.

or

Open with Hypnotic Pattern and use careful spell as necessary. Hypnotic pattern is a great spell but it's a pain to position in many circumstances because it's not party friendly. Careful spell does not eliminate damage on AoE damage spells so is only semi useful for spells like fireball. Combine these 2 though and for 1 sorcery point you get the absolute best of both worlds - only the evoker can pull the same stunt.

So again, interesting tactic - but I guess I just object to it being places on such a high pedestal.
Careful Fear/Hypnotic Pattern + The Hound is insane. It also triggers Warcaster + PAM Spell oportunity attack.
Twin Polymorph turning allies into 2 Giant Ape + The Hound is insane.
both combo really well with Warcaster.

Thats why my next feat will be Metamagic Adept and pick Careful and Twin for still more and more versatility and still, deals a lot of burst damage on melee range and other shenanigans.
It will be certainly my strongest build that I already created.

Damage? It's a lot
Control? It's a lot
Buffing? The best
Advantage for everything and disadvage for enemies? Yes
Burst? It's a lot

It's by far the strongest and versatile build on tier 2. where 94% of games end.

It isn't a joke, It has "advantage" on Skill Checks too. It's called Magical Guidance...o_O
 
Last edited:




Level Up!

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top