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D&D 5E Shadow Sorcerer + Warcaster + Polearm Master + Eye of Darkness = Is It insane?

rgoodbb

Adventurer
You folks must love going round and round with Hohige. You must all have good constitutions. To try and clearly argue good logic and gameplay experience with this poster who is well known to disregard most if not all criticism (no matter how constructive and correct) and change their build and mind multiple times to defend their build and who may have poor active listening skills. I hope everyone is having fun and not getting frustrated.

Well you are all saints.

The thing I love about Hohge is their obvious enthusiasm for the game.
The thing I hope for Hohige is that they actually get to play it sometime.
 

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Mort

Legend
Also as your fellow party member I wanted to play a ranger not an AC 12 Giant ape. So save your polymorph cheers.

To be fair, Polymorph IS a great way for the sorcerer to emergency heal himself or a party member.

It'll take someone in single digit HP up to 157 HP (assuming the target is 7th+ level and we use a giant ape)! And it can be done at range. That's pretty good for arcane casters that "can't heal."

Of course, it's concentration. So if the sorcerer then wades into melee combat the benefit won't last long.
 

TheSword

Legend
To be fair, Polymorph IS a great way for the sorcerer to emergency heal himself or a party member.

It'll take someone in single digit HP up to 157 HP (assuming the target is 7th+ level and we use a giant ape)! And it can be done at range. That's pretty good for arcane casters that "can't heal."

Of course, it's concentration. So if the sorcerer then wades into melee combat the benefit won't last long.
Sure. It’s a great spell with lots of applications. I’m just not sure it’s a go to spell in the way it’s described by Hohige. Particularly at high levels.

It’s one of the spells I usually select but rarely use. Probably because you become an obvious target and the low AC means those HP get shredded ridiculously fast. We had similar issues with a Moon Druid being very good until by 6th/7th level every enemy hit was landing and his wild shape was lasting 2 rounds tops.

Dropping to the creatures int isn’t great either. Though at least a giant ape has Int 7
 
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It's pretty clear :
"Two-Handed
This weapon requires two hands when you Attack with it."

The Sorcerer isn't attacking this that weapon, It doesn't require two hands.
This isn't about attacking, this is about whether holding a weapon in a way where it can't be used to make an attack in any way counts as "wielding it" for the purpose of triggering PAM opportunity attacks. I'd definitely say no, and I can't imagine I'm alone in that interpretation.
I think you're both talking at cross purposes. The character needs to hold the glaive with both hands most of the time in order to trigger opportunity attacks, but the dagger attacks are the ones the character is doing on their turn, not the AoO.

So the character holds the glaive with two hands and casts a ranged spell as a reaction when an enemy comes within 10ft. (Firebolt I assume.)
On their turn, they move towards their opponent if necessary, draw the dagger, make a booming blade action, sheathe the dagger, and move away from their opponent, putting both hands back onto the glaive.
 

I think you're both talking at cross purposes. The character needs to hold the glaive with both hands most of the time in order to trigger opportunity attacks, but the dagger attacks are the ones the character is doing on their turn, not the AoO.

So the character holds the glaive with two hands and casts a ranged spell as a reaction when an enemy comes within 10ft. (Firebolt I assume.)
On their turn, they move towards their opponent if necessary, draw the dagger, make a booming blade action, sheathe the dagger, and move away from their opponent, putting both hands back onto the glaive.
Rules as written you can draw or stow one weapon as part of your move or attack actions. Any more weapon-swapping and you have to start using actions to do it. I suspect this rule was specifically intended to kybosh shenanigans of this type (though I expect many dms are willing to be a bit flexible, especially in the case of thrown weapons used by PCs with multiple attacks)
 

TheSword

Legend
Rules as written you can draw or stow one weapon as part of your move or attack actions. Any more weapon-swapping and you have to start using actions to do it. I suspect this rule was specifically intended to kybosh shenanigans of this type (though I expect many dms are willing to be a bit flexible, especially in the case of thrown weapons used by PCs with multiple attacks)
Absolutely. One interaction with an item per round. This is backed up by dual wielder that allows you to draw two weapons instead of one.

Switching between weapons before and after your go is a very twisty thing to do too. Combat is supposed to be happening simultaneously. It stretches credulity to imagine you are attacking with one weapon and defending with a totally different one.
 

TheSword

Legend
You folks must love going round and round with Hohige. You must all have good constitutions. To try and clearly argue good logic and gameplay experience with this poster who is well known to disregard most if not all criticism (no matter how constructive and correct) and change their build and mind multiple times to defend their build and who may have poor active listening skills. I hope everyone is having fun and not getting frustrated.

Well you are all saints.

The thing I love about Hohge is their obvious enthusiasm for the game.
The thing I hope for Hohige is that they actually get to play it sometime.
To be fair I find it an interesting rules game to see the strengths and flaws… or mainly the flaws, as @Hohige is already all over the strengths.

It does make me think of my post in @Snarf Zagyg ’s thread on the necessity (or lack of necessity) for rules in games. They both enable and control this kind of discussion, because for some players finding the next big thing is a game in and of itself.

5e has nothing on Pathfinder 1e in this regard, with its 2,500 feats, traits, purchasable magic items, racial abilities, class abilities etc. it was a college degree to master the game.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
To be fair I find it an interesting rules game to see the strengths and flaws… or mainly the flaws, as @Hohige is already all over the strengths.

It does make me think of my post in @Snarf Zagyg ’s thread on the necessity (or lack of necessity) for rules in games. They both enable and control this kind of discussion, because for some players finding the next big thing is a game in and of itself.

5e has nothing on Pathfinder 1e in this regard, with its 2,500 feats, traits, purchasable magic items, racial abilities, class abilities etc. it was a college degree to master the game.

I think that there are many people who absolutely love the character creation mini-game in D&D (and similar games, like PF). For some people, creating builds and discussing builds can be as fun (or more fun?) than playing them!

At some point, I think it would be interesting to discuss the preferences people have for different kinds of rules; for example, some people enjoy very crunchy rules for character creation, but don't enjoy getting that bogged down in rules during actual play. Of course, the crunchier the character creation, usually the crunchier to overall play. Something to think about ...
 

Sabathius42

Bree-Yark
I think you're both talking at cross purposes. The character needs to hold the glaive with both hands most of the time in order to trigger opportunity attacks, but the dagger attacks are the ones the character is doing on their turn, not the AoO.

So the character holds the glaive with two hands and casts a ranged spell as a reaction when an enemy comes within 10ft. (Firebolt I assume.)
On their turn, they move towards their opponent if necessary, draw the dagger, make a booming blade action, sheathe the dagger, and move away from their opponent, putting both hands back onto the glaive.
By this logic every character would be using a shield when it's "not their turn", even if they were armed with longbows or greatswords.
 

By this logic every character would be using a shield when it's "not their turn", even if they were armed with longbows or greatswords.
It takes an action to equip or unequip a shield. It's probably the most overlooked of all the more simple and straightforward rules in the PHB but it's in there. Very frustrating to anyone who imagines they just have a center-griped shield rather than a strapped to the forearm shield and who wants to be able to do the moment mid-combat where they throw their shield aside to double-hand their versatile weapon, but I think you've discovered why it is a rule.
 

Hohige

Explorer
I started SKT game level 5, now we are level 6.
We are using Tasha's rules and a uncommon magical item and 500gold
It rides a Warhorse.
1631712139345.png


Half Elf Variant for weapon proficiency swap Longsword for Rapier Proficiency (The Uncommon Item is Rapier +1).
Adjusted +2 dex, +1con +1 Cha.
We are using a house rule Flanking for +2 attack instead advantage.
Level 4 feat: Elven Accuracy (+1 dex)

Final Stats
18 dex, 16 con, 16 cha.

17 AC. 22 with Shield Spell. The enemy has disadvantage against him (Darkness). It's an really hard to hit, really.

Attack roll +8 (+10 if flanking)

Quicken Spell and Empower Spell




1631710490653.png

The Shadow Sorcerer

1631710546425.png

The Hound


With his Warhorse, He can move 120fts per turn without provoke oportunity attack (Darkness).
You can free walk though the map.
You can freely cast Empower Fireball, Triple Advantage Scourching Ray, Firebolt, Chromatic Orb, Fear as standard sorcerer does.
Calling the hound at 120ft freely as bonus action. You have triple advantage and apply disadvantage against your spell also, can boost your damage with empower spell and cast them as bonus action,

Melee
Bonus action: The Hound that attacks the enemy with advantage (pack tatics) and flanking and DC 13 for prone. 10average damage
Move 15 fts.
Action for Empowered Booming Blade for triple advantage +10 to hit average 27 damage (16 on hit, extra 11 if the enemy moves, triggering booming blade extra damage).

Moves 35ft. (The enemy can't reach you and will trigger booming blade if moves and provokes the Hound's Oportunity attack that can prone him).
It's a really really effective Hit and run tatics.


If you don't want waste a leveled spell, double Booming Blade is always nice. for 32 damage on hit, +11 if moves + hound damage.


Burst damage:

Move:
Empowered Booming Blade for average 27 damage.
Move 40ft out.
Bonus action: Quicken Empowered triple advantage Scorching Ray for average 34 damage or Cast Fireball with disadvantage for extra love.
The Hound extra damage 10 or 20 (If the enemy moves). Remember that It has advantage with pack tatics and flanking add +2 on attack roll.





Control:

The Hound + Fear Spell with disadvantage, It's over for the enemy.
If the hound is on place, Mind Sliver with disadvantage + Quicken Fear.
It's fear with disadvantage -1d4 saving throw. It's insane.



The Shadow Sorcerer is by far the strongest class at tier 1 and 2 that almost 94% of games end.




Stealth and Surprise:

Invisibility Spell +7 Stealth check with Sorcerer's Magical Guidance (Better than Advantage) and Darkvision 120ft.
All enemies see 60ft on darkness, but the Shadow Sorcerer see 120ft. So, you have triple advantage against enemies that can't see you.
It's a reliable Stealth Character and really effective on natural darkness..

Level 8, get feat for Expertise on Stealth checks. It's an insane +12 Stealth Check, with Sorcerer's Magical Guidance, It's still more insane.

It's a scary character.
 
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Hohige

Explorer
I think that there are many people who absolutely love the character creation mini-game in D&D (and similar games, like PF). For some people, creating builds and discussing builds can be as fun (or more fun?) than playing them!

At some point, I think it would be interesting to discuss the preferences people have for different kinds of rules; for example, some people enjoy very crunchy rules for character creation, but don't enjoy getting that bogged down in rules during actual play. Of course, the crunchier the character creation, usually the crunchier to overall play. Something to think about ...
first, I build a ideal build, after that I run it on a real game.
I really love it.
Creating build is really really fun for me.
 




Nefermandias

Adventurer
I’ve done this build before (basically - I used a warlock with Devil’s Sight instead of a Shadow Sorcerer, but same idea) and it’s… ok. The problems I had with it were twofold: first, you only have one reaction per round, so while the PAM + Warcaster trick is cute, it doesn’t end up being nearly as powerful as it looks on paper. The second, much bigger issue, is that it’s very team-unfriendly. The idea of being a walking zone of area denial is cool, but when that zone also prevents your allies from seeing… it ends up hindering the party almost as much as it hinders the enemies.
While I agree that this build (and it's variations) isn't the best team player, the obscurement is only really a problem if your team have spellcasters who rely on seeing the target of their spells. Martials are unlikely to be hindered due to the fact that most of the time, Darkness won't really be applying disadvantage to their attacks.
 


Hohige

Explorer
Maybe at those tables with only one encounter
with a single powerful enemy every long rest... Which I'll admit seems to be the norm among the new guys who despise traditional dungeon crawling.
Well that doesn't seem the reality of the facts.
In dungeons, Darkness is common and this build has excellent exploration tools.
120fts Darkness means that you will apply triple advantage to all creatures that cannot see in the dark or if you only have 60fts darkvision. This in practice makes a lot of difference. Really.
Also, amazing stealth and magical guidance to be reliable.

Another detail:
Out of decisive combat with a single target boss and without spending resources.
Hit and Run tactics, Booming Blade has triple advantage all the time. in matters of positioning and AC, in practice, the Shadow Sorcerer almost never takes damage. Never ever.

Triple advantage Firebolt or Hit and Run Booming Blade is arguably better than any melee in "normal" dungeon combat. His attacks are reliable, while standard melee character isn't. The Shadow Sorcerer will certainly deal more damage than other melee characters.

The feeling I have is that this Shadow Sorcerer is untouchable and It always hits, critical hits are very frequent.
 
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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
While I agree that this build (and it's variations) isn't the best team player, the obscurement is only really a problem if your team have spellcasters who rely on seeing the target of their spells. Martials are unlikely to be hindered due to the fact that most of the time, Darkness won't really be applying disadvantage to their attacks.
Yeah, the disadvantage you get for not being able to see your target does cancel out with the advantage you get due to them not being able to see you. The bigger problem though is the part where you can’t see your target. That’s going to cause problems beyond a simple dice penalty, such as casters not being able to use spells that require seeing the target, and martial characters having to rely on sound. Plus your opponents can easily try to hide from you if you can’t see them.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
So the character holds the glaive with two hands and casts a ranged spell as a reaction when an enemy comes within 10ft. (Firebolt I assume.)
On their turn, they move towards their opponent if necessary, draw the dagger, make a booming blade action, sheathe the dagger, and move away from their opponent, putting both hands back onto the glaive.
Technically you need Dual Wielder to be able to draw and sheathe a weapon on the same turn, since it uses your object interaction. I know a lot of DMs are more generous with such interactions than what RAW allows, but it’s something to be aware of and discuss with your DM before assuming it will work.
 

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