D&D General Railroads, Illusionism, and Participationism

[payn]

"The new D&D is too rule intensive. It's relegated the Dungeon Master to being an entertainer rather than master of the game."

Whether or not you agree with his overall sentiment, I could not agree more with the bolded section.

I prefer to think I have one foot in each side of the playing the rules vs playing the game debate and expect my players to feel the same.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I could not disagree with this more. As the GM, I am not there to make the game fun, as fun is a buzzword (insert copypasta here). I am there to make the game fair. I am not a storyteller; I am a referee. I adjudicate rules and rolls. The players are more responsible for their fun than I am.

As a GM you are responsible of creating the environment, NPCs, their reactions, motivations, describing thing and countless other things. These are all about creating a story. You're not storytelling alone, but you're doing it, and it is bizarre to pretend otherwise. GM as some sort of impartial referee without creative input is not something that can exist in reality. So better just accept the role and the responsibility and do your best to craft a good story!

Also, the players are my friends, spending their free time with me, so of course I do my best to ensure that they have a good time!

 

[Mannahnin]

Choice does not imply an informed decision. I can choose to flip a coin. I must choose to arbitrarily open a door of my own volition. All choice implies is more than one option.

Literally true but sub-optimal. Part of GMing best practices is giving the PCs info to help them make decisions without them being completely blind selections (and making more info available if they ask smart questions or otherwise actively seek it).

 

[Lyxen]

As a GM you are responsible of creating the environment, NPCs, their reactions, motivations, describing thing and countless other things. These are all about creating a story. You're not storytelling alone, but you're doing it, and it is bizarre to pretend otherwise. GM as some sort of impartial referee without creative input is not something that can exist in reality. So better just accept the role and the responsibility and do your best to craft a good story!

Also, the players are my friends, spending their free time with me, so of course I do my best to ensure that they have a good time!

I agree. Once more, we see the flexibility of D&D, you can have DMs like Thom and DMs like you and I, who run games with very different intentions in mind. None of them is wrong, although I think it's important to realize that the various editions of D&D were designed with different objectives in mind, and because of that, I've found them more or less supportive of certain styles of play (which, in turn, leads DMs to prefer one or other edition depending on their preferences and the style of game they run). For example, in 4e, the referee side (Thom's I think) is really strong and referred to in the DMG. Where is 5e, it's rather the opposite, the DM is the lead storyteller first and a referee next, and then as he is supposed to come up with his own rulings as often as using the rules themselves, it makes even that role more creative and less inherently "fair" (as he can create rulings for fun or for fairness).

This, in turn, just confirms that it's really hard to discuss on these topics unless you are conscious of your biases...

 

[Maxperson]

Literally true but sub-optimal. Part of GMing best practices is giving the PCs info to help them make decisions without them being completely blind selections (and making more info available if they ask smart questions or otherwise actively seek it).

Well, yeah. Guessing blindly is suboptimal to making an informed decision.

That's not the point, though. The point is that the quantum ogre is still negating player decision, even if the player is guessing blindly. That negation = railroading.

 

[Lyxen]

Well, yeah. Guessing blindly is suboptimal to making an informed decision.

That's not the point, though. The point is that the quantum ogre is still negating player decision, even if the player is guessing blindly. That negation = railroading.

Actually it does not. The player did not have information about where the ogre was. He did not choose the door with an ogre or the door without an ogre. He just choose the left door or the right door. And that choice is not invalidated. He could not choose a door with or without an ogre, he could not choose a door with or without a fight, he had no information which was which anyway.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Well, yeah. Guessing blindly is suboptimal to making an informed decision.

That's not the point, though. The point is that the quantum ogre is still negating player decision, even if the player is guessing blindly. That negation = railroading.

Nope. In my book only informed choices matter for agency. Blind guess is not a choice, so GM dictating outcome of such is not negating agency; the player had no agency on the matter in the first place.

 

[el-remmen]

So better just accept the role and the responsibility and do your best to craft a good story!

And here is where I have to disagree. I think as DM I am at least 50% responsible for the table's fun, but I do not see myself as crafting a story at all. A story may emerge from the events at the table or in-game occurrences - but that is not what I am trying to do while running a game.

 

[Maxperson]

Actually it does not. The player did not have information about where the ogre was. He did not choose the door with an ogre or the door without an ogre. He just choose the left door or the right door. And that choice is not invalidated.

Incorrect. He blindly chose the left door in hopes that he would get lucky and avoid the ogre. The choice was to avoid the ogre via luck. Your moving the ogre negated that choice.

 

[Maxperson]

Nope. In my book only informed choices matter for agency. Blind guess is not a choice, so GM dictating outcome of such is not negating agency; the player had no agency on the matter in the first place.

He made his choice based on information provided by the DM.

DM: "Pick a door and if you get lucky, you will find the exit. If not, an ogre awaits you."

His choice was based on that information and he had the agency to make it and possibly avoid the ogre. The DM is obligated to uphold what he said and keep that information true.