• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

D&D General Railroads, Illusionism, and Participationism

Status
Not open for further replies.
that is one of my biggest beef with 4e, that you resolved by using another system by the way, that you have to formalise things using skill challenges because you cannot use magic, which is either combat orientated or too slow and cumbersome to be of any use.
All I can say is that this is not my experience.

I posted an example of play, which you seemed to have read, in which an encounter attack power - Tide of the First Storm - was used not to make an attack but to cleanse the Abyssal taint from a pool in the Mausoleum of the Raven Queen. (The PHB, the DMG and the DMG2 all discuss how to adjudicate this sort of thing.)

The same example of play also showed other uses of magic in a skill challenge, like summoning Phantom Steeds, communing with Vecna, sealing the Abyss, etc.

My experience of 4e is that magic plays a significant role, as one would expect in a D&D-ish FRPG.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Not quite my case: our game logs are usually written up by the DM of that game; in part because the logs are online on our gaming site and not everyone has access; and in part because the DM is often the only one taking notes except in specific situations.

Yeah, if I knew anything about search engines I might consider adding one, but I don't; so people have to go the old-fashioned route and use their own eyes. :)
I'm using a Wiki, which allows the players to create pages but the DM (me and the other DMs, I've got a group per campaign, for example here and here and here) can also create his own, and there is access control. That way, when the players of one campaign search, they will search only their pages, but when the DM searches, it's the whole campaign.

And I've just realised that it's been running for almost 20 years now...
 

OTOH, if you're better at solving (or writing) a whodunit than the GM ... maybe your solution makes more sense. I have no idea how a GM would go about explaining that to you in a way you'd be happy with.

This is probably an aside for the thread as a whole, but having run a lot of an investigative game (Ashen Stars - Gumshoe-based): for a tabletop RPG, if you want a successful whodunit, you don't write a whodunit.

Mysteries in games are perhaps the strongest example of times when you don't want to write plots, you want to write situations. The elements of "whodunit" are a result of play, not something you actively write to create. The story-beats that make a whodunit are a natural result of the investigation, and the reactions of people around it happening.

You can do this in either a determinate or indeterminate way - who actually did it can be determined beforehand, or not.
 
Last edited:

Doesn't work for me, I try to live by "show, don't tell". Telling everyone that some NPC is an evil genius only to have him behave like an idiot and be continuously outsmarted does not make for good verisimilitude.

Warning - a generalization follows. I suspect few will have much gripe with it, but warning regardless...

So, the problem with evil geniuses is that, well, we GMs... aren't, on the whole, evil geniuses. Heck, by and large, we are law abiding citizens with little experience enacting complicated crimes, and if we tried it in the real world, we'd get caught quickly for stupid mistakes.

Now, our players are usually pretty much the same. However, there's one GM brain, and some multiple player brains. For the most part, having more brains, the players can and will out-think the GM, if given the chance. So, for most GMs, being outsmarted is inevitable.

This is where preparation (including monster design with special abilities that mimic being Smarter Than You) comes in.
 

Is that what you're trying to go for -- humble bragging to shame others?

Hmmm, no, but maybe some others might benefit from a bit more humility in how they present themselves ?

As for the shaming, why yes, when I see some people (not you) being proud of behaving horribly to other people because of some theoretical principles, I will admit that it makes me feel both angry and sad.

Why do you feel the need to cast yourself as virtuous against other's imagined villainy?

Because it's not imagined, just look at the vocabulary used:
  • For what I am looking for when it comes to roleplaying games where I care about the unfolding narrative I view other players (including the GM) trying to impress their vision on all of us a violation of trust.
  • This explains what I mean by the DM acting in bad faith far better than I said it
  • "I am there to make the game fair.", hence my games are unfair ?
  • "I think that trust not built on honesty is at best unearned and probably false."
  • His benevolence and good will doesn't make railroading and lying to the players okay, though.
And I'm not even going to go to that other thread. The implications are basically that I run an unfair, dishonest game to deceive my friends and use techniques that are the hallmark of a bad DM...

I have not once used dishonest or unfair or suggested it's bad DMing. I can say this because I don't think it. You've cast villains again, and imagined the villainy.

Indeed, YOU have not. :)

I don't even follow what you're trying to show here -- that you playacted the role well enough? I dunno, I do that well, too, and have a number of memorable NPCs I could list. You just seem to be reiterating that you have all kinds of prep involved -- which is an odd response to me saying that a no prep method actually works as well. I'm not confused that prep can work -- that was the primary way I played for 2 decades. I tend to avoid it these days because what I want from the game has changed. So, I know prep works well enough, but I also know that the method I've provided works equally well enough. I'm not sure what you're trying to establish here.

It works when the PCs are facing one villain at a time, for social interaction. It does not cover the fact that I have 20 more villains plotting behind the scenes, the effect of which plots should be felt as a thread, and therefore not as fairly inept. In addition to the fact that I don't have the time to prepare 20 plots, there is also the fact that I can't think like these guys should and render them justice.

Okay, then you're using a useless metric that represents lots of possibilities and cannot select between them. And, given that you're adamantly resistant to other approaches that also generate great deals of fun, it appears that there's actually a different metric that you're using.

I'm not resistant, I acknowledge that I've been using them and they work for limited segments of the game, but they don't cover my major subject in terms of intrigue/ plotting game, that's all.
 

Hmmm, no, but maybe some others might benefit from a bit more humility in how they present themselves ?

As for the shaming, why yes, when I see some people (not you) being proud of behaving horribly to other people because of some theoretical principles, I will admit that it makes me feel both angry and sad.



Because it's not imagined, just look at the vocabulary used:
  • For what I am looking for when it comes to roleplaying games where I care about the unfolding narrative I view other players (including the GM) trying to impress their vision on all of us a violation of trust.
  • This explains what I mean by the DM acting in bad faith far better than I said it
  • "I am there to make the game fair.", hence my games are unfair ?
  • "I think that trust not built on honesty is at best unearned and probably false."
  • His benevolence and good will doesn't make railroading and lying to the players okay, though.
And I'm not even going to go to that other thread. The implications are basically that I run an unfair, dishonest game to deceive my friends and use techniques that are the hallmark of a bad DM...



Indeed, YOU have not. :)
And yet your responses to me are hostile and predicated on defending yourself, not what I'm actually saying. You need to check targets, man.
It works when the PCs are facing one villain at a time, for social interaction. It does not cover the fact that I have 20 more villains plotting behind the scenes, the effect of which plots should be felt as a thread, and therefore not as fairly inept. In addition to the fact that I don't have the time to prepare 20 plots, there is also the fact that I can't think like these guys should and render them justice.
Wait, you're complaining that the single example I presented in response to asking how I would do a single bad guy now fails because you've moved the goalposts to needing 20 more behind him, and because you've goal post invalidated that one example, the entire approach has to fail?

Okay, I mean, you're clearly not going to engage the arguments actually made, but either kneejerk react hostilely towards anyone because someone else might have said something that can be taken as being a meanie or just handwave arguments away so that they don't have to be considered at all. What smarts a tad here is you scolding me to be more humble while you do this.
I'm not resistant, I acknowledge that I've been using them and they work for limited segments of the game, but they don't cover my major subject in terms of intrigue/ plotting game, that's all.
Right, that's not resistant at all. "They aren't what I'm already doing so I'm just going to ignore them." Uh-huh, tell us more about your considering and accepting ways.
 

there's one GM brain, and some multiple player brains. For the most part, having more brains, the players can and will out-think the GM, if given the chance. So, for most GMs, being outsmarted is inevitable.

This is where preparation (including monster design with special abilities that mimic being Smarter Than You) comes in.
Another alternative is to use the sort of soft/hard move technique @Ovinmancer was the first to suggest upthread.

Eg if the Stealth (or similar) check fails, then (soft) the PC notices the guard/scout/camera that the evil genius has put in place, and so can't go forward without being spotted; or (hard) the PC is confronted by the guard/scout who the evil genius put in place, and who has already noticed the PC!
 

when I see some people (not you) being proud of behaving horribly to other people because of some theoretical principles, I will admit that it makes me feel both angry and sad.
I and @Hussar did not leave games because of "theoretical principles". We left because they were bad games that we were not enjoying. And leaving a game is not "behaving horribly". We don't owe our leisure time to others in the way that you seem to think; they don't have any moral demand on us. A GM offering to run a game is not like a person who is suffering and deserves to be helped even at a cost to the helper. Playing RPGs is not a type of charity service!

Whether or not Hussar is proud of it, I'm neither proud nor ashamed. It's no different from no longer going to restaurants that didn't serve nice food. Or dialling back my degree of interaction with abrasive colleagues.
 

Out of curiosity, what if the player's flash of insight was wrong according to the DM's notes, but was both better-supported by the clues thus far and made for a better, more entertaining story?

Specifically, let's say the player suddenly realizes that the Princess is framing the Baron, and explains their character's reasoning to the other players. Upon hearing the reasoning, the DM realizes that the clues they had intended to point towards the Baron point even more strongly towards the framed-by-Princess theory. The other players are excited, and start exclaiming about how awesome the solution to the mystery is.

Would you object to the DM "secretly retconning" the framed-by-Princess theory to be correct in this circumstance?
That's...pretty unlikely, but theoretically possible. As I said, I'm not a genius, my players are collectively much smarter than I am. I would have to very, very carefully consider how to proceed. I consider it an extreme risk to do this ever, for any reason, even if that reason seems really, really good.

The reason I hate doing anything like this is that it makes the world unreliable. The world not only can, but will change every single time the DM thinks it's a good idea, at which point things like truth and consequences cease to have meaning. Consequences evaporate because the consequences are only what I secretly permit them to be. Truth evaporates because there are no facts--there are only provisional appearances that I, as DM, can secretly overwrite whenever and wherever I feel like.

Another way of putting this is: If you're in a relationship (be it romantic, platonic, economic, whatever) and the other person misrepresents their actions, actively prevents you from trying to find out about it, and if/when called out tells you that "it's for your own good" or "it's in your best interest," you should get out of there immediately. That's an incredibly dangerous thing in any relationship that affects your real life. I consider "the game group" another relationship that affects my real life.

But--contrary to what some have said--I am open to considering that I made a mistake, or that I thought I had presented clues that indicated one person was the perpetrator and another innocent when they made far more sense the other way around. If, again in this highly unlikely scenario, I actually did feel I had made a real bonehead maneuver and bungled the clues that badly, I would not simply go ahead with the players' theory as though that had been the truth all along. I would build new justifications for why that theory would indeed need to be true.

Part of the problem with this is that, while I can imagine any single clue ending up pointing "the wrong way," I would never furnish just a single opportunity for such clues. In the actual murder mystery I ran (where an actual Baron was indeed framed for murder!), there were six entirely distinct clues that hinted at the true culprit: witness testimony from the servants and party guests, the time of death (many hours before the last time the victim was seen), the actual cause of death (poison, not the dagger found in his back, which had been put there well after death, meaning minimal blood on his clothes--clear sign of a fake wound), the actual location of death (his room, not the upper chamber where the body was found), the people the victim had spent time with prior, and forged paperwork traceable to the real culprit if the party read through it carefully, which they did.

So if I screwed up so badly that I managed to make not one clue, not two clues, but more than half of the clues "point the wrong way"? Well, I've screwed up badly enough that I need to make amends. One possible path would be to have a trusted NPC provide a hint that specific clues (that is, the ones "pointing the right way," but against the players' superior explanation) are fake or untrustworthy in a way they hadn't been able to detect, so that the players know they need to dig deeper and find the "real" clues (which, in this case, will support their superior theory). Another could be that they discover the "real" killer (that is, the one their superior theory identifies as the killer), or an agent of that person, manipulating the evidence or in some other way tampering with things, again so they can clearly know that the evidence they had is at least partially untrustworthy.

As a result...no, I don't think I would use "secret retconning," because I would draw attention to the idea that some of the evidence they have is fake. I would not, necessarily, tell them that this was retconning other than after the mystery is resolved. I tend to be very open with my players about mistakes I make, so that I can get feedback and do better, I just sometimes wait until the "postmortem" as it were to lay my cards on the table. But either way, I would make damned sure that the players get a clear signal that some of the evidence that they thought was reliable wasn't, so they would know to ask more questions and dig deeper.

(For reference, from my standpoint my notes are just suggestions until established in play or in the player-facing campaign documentation, so no "retconning" would be required to proceed with the framed-by-Princess scenario. But I'm using your terminology since I know we differ on that point.)
This is fair, and in some ways, my notes are similar. However, I have a much more stringent standard of "established in play" than you do, I think. That is, as soon as the clues are even brought to the party's attention, they're locked in. They exist in the world as objects (or states or whatever: see "knife wound didn't bleed, clearly a fake cause of death"), and the instant those objects are perceptible to the players, even if the players don't notice or mess up investigating them, they're established. I can't change established things without establishing something new. That establishing-something-new cannot be secret; it must be at least in principle observable by the party.

I take great pains to stress this for a reason (people have tried to use it as a weakness of my position before): I do not expect the party to succeed at discovering the true state of things, they can quite easily fail both because the dice betray them, and because they simply ask the wrong questions or look in the wrong places. I am not responsible for ensuring that my players successfully determine the true state of things. I am only responsible for ensuring that they can possibly determine it, whatever it may be.

As another example: monster statistics. As long as the party has not actually made an observation of the relevant characteristic, those characteristics remain unknowable to them even in principle, and thus can be changed. For example, an owlbear. They don't know precisely how hard it is to hit (AC), how hard it is to take down (HP), or how nasty its attacks are (damage) unless they acquire good evidence thereof. Once a combat starts, however? I can't change those things anymore. They exist, they are in principle knowable, even if the party never actually learns them (e.g. if the beast runs away before they kill it, they won't actually learn how much HP it had, but they could have, which means it's off-limits for changing unless I give explicit opportunity to find out why it changed.)
 

So this is pretty blatant railroading. You deus ex extra resources for the enemy in order to force the outcome you want (longer battle in this instance.) If the players do not know you do this, i.e. they assume the wizard always had the orb and you didn't just make it up on the spot, it is illusionism, and as such will probably work fine. If the players know you just made it up to prolong the battle, it will make the battle tactics feel rather pointless; if they do well it will just result the GM conjuring extra resources for the enemies to compensate.
Whether or not it is railroading (and I definitely do not see it as such, though I very, VERY rarely do anything like this), it isn't secret. I'm not hiding it from the players. Hiding things from the players--making yourself appear to never make mistakes, appear to be as smart as the whole group combined--is the problem.

I emphatically don't see it as railroading for the sole reason that introducing wrinkles like this is a vital part of DMing almost any game. Again, I very, very rarely do this because I vastly prefer to have justifications established well in advance, and in my own game, I have only had to do something vaguely like this exactly one time. Every time my players have outwitted me, I have absolutely supported it, even if I felt disappointed about doing so.

The one and only time I did anything remotely like this was when I made a fight intentionally over-tuned to see if I could actually challenge them, because I had been having trouble giving them fights that were actually difficult. I succeeded at making a too-difficult fight. The players decided to hyper-focus the big shadow monster, and brought it very close to death. Since shadows like these had powers to absorb life energy (which the players had seen, both in this fight and previous fights), I used a rather liberal interpretation of the move I'd written for that ("steal life with its blows") to say that this powerful shadow could steal life from the numerous weak shadows accompanying it in order to heal itself. This allowed me to fix the primary problem with the fight (too many opponents).

After the session, I was very clear to my players that this had been a test of whether I could actually threaten them with combats, and the result had been "yes, in fact too much." I apologized for throwing a combat at them that really was too tough, and said I would learn from that mistake to do better combats in the future. The players had no problem with this, said they kinda suspected that I'd had to switch gears mid-fight, and said they appreciated my candor about what happened and why.
 
Last edited:

Status
Not open for further replies.

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top