D&D General Inherently Evil?

[Lyxen]

True, but that 1%, by virtue of making a lot of noise, do have a disproportionately large impact on the people who make the game, which leads to changing the game, which affects everybody.

And although disproportionately large, I wonder by how much or if it is really the case and to what extent. You don't get such a success beyond the usual fans by only doing market analysis and taking into account 1% of your user base.

 

[Maxperson]

Except in the game rules. The Positive and Negative energy planes are both unaligned just like the other elemental planes.

"The Negative Energy Plane is a barren, empty place, a void without end, and a place of empty, endless night. Worse, it is a needy, greedy plane, sucking the life out of anything that is vulnerable. Heat, fire, and life itself are all drawn into the maw of this plane, which always hungers for more."

"The Positive Energy Plane is best compared to the heart of a star. It is a continual furnace of creation, a domain of brilliance beyond
the ability of mortal eyes to comprehend. Its very being wavers and ripples as new matter and energy is born and swells to full power like a bursting fruit. It is a vibrant plane, so alive with itself that travelers themselves are empowered by visiting it."

So the planes have no consciousness, so the PLANES are unaligned. To use their power is good or evil. To use the power of positive energy is good. You can't use the power of positive energy to create evil spells, nor can you use the power of negative energy to create good ones.

1) Descriptors are tags, not a moral statement.

Not by RAW. By RAW the tags that are moral(lawful/chaotic/good/evil) affect alignment. I quoted the rules section in an above post.

I mean, point. Good and D&D is often incredibly monstrous and completely disconnected from actually being a good person.

Probably because it was originally conceived as a Cosmic faction instead of a behavioral lever.

Or because a paladin can kill in self-defense you if you attack him, regardless of your alignment. And then there's the famous saying, "Too much of a good thing." which means too much good can be bad for you. The plane is super charged good and mortals just can't handle it for too long.

 

[tomBitonti]

Re: Animated objects vs animated dead. Aren’t there differences? In 3.E, animated dead are healed by negative energy, and lose any material based damage reduction. Animated objects retain their material damage reduction and can be repaired.
TomB

 

[Faolyn]

There's no point to animate dead if all you need to do is animate objects. Animate Dead also targets a corpse, not an object, as do other necromantic spells. Control Undead targets a corpse, not an object. Additionally, Transport Via Plants says, "The destruction of an occupied plant slays you and any creatures you have brought along, and ejects the bodies and all carried objects from the tree." Lastly, Animate Object says to use the stats in the MM. The MM shows objects, not prior corpses, and talks about hardness based on the substance it was prior to animation. It's very clear that RAI is not to allow Animate Objects to work on a corpse, and nothing in RAW says it works on a corpse.

For what its worth, Crawford says corpses are objects.


Animat dead/create dead create undead permanently (well, instantaneously, but the undead last until killed. Animate object only lasts a minute.

More importantly, corpses are both dead creatures and objects (creatures in the sense that raise dead and similar spells target dead creatures).

 

[Maxperson]

For what its worth, Crawford says corpses are objects.


Animat dead/create dead create undead permanently (well, instantaneously, but the undead last until killed. Animate object only lasts a minute.

More importantly, corpses are both dead creatures and objects (creatures in the sense that raise dead and similar spells target dead creatures).

We're talking about 3e. I'm not surprised about 5e, though. There are lots of small changes that they made with this latest edition.

 

[Vaalingrade]

"The Negative Energy Plane is a barren, empty place, a void without end, and a place of empty, endless night. Worse, it is a needy, greedy plane, sucking the life out of anything that is vulnerable. Heat, fire, and life itself are all drawn into the maw of this plane, which always hungers for more."

"The Positive Energy Plane is best compared to the heart of a star. It is a continual furnace of creation, a domain of brilliance beyond
the ability of mortal eyes to comprehend. Its very being wavers and ripples as new matter and energy is born and swells to full power like a bursting fruit. It is a vibrant plane, so alive with itself that travelers themselves are empowered by visiting it."

So the planes have no consciousness, so the PLANES are unaligned. To use their power is good or evil. To use the power of positive energy is good. You can't use the power of positive energy to create evil spells, nor can you use the power of negative energy to create good ones.

Except that are actual planes of good and evil powered by (in 3e) divine and profane energies, which are the actual good/evil energies.

The first mention of negative energy being evil is in the BoVD trying to justify undead being evil. And Inflict/Cure spells still aren't tagged as Good or Evil because using those energies has nothing to do with good or evil. Speaking of...

Not by RAW. By RAW the tags that are moral(lawful/chaotic/good/evil) affect alignment. I quoted the rules section in an above post.

You quoted a rules section that say 'affect'. Nothing says they're a [Tag] Action anymore than Fireball is a [Fire] Action.

The tagged spells are all either part of a domain of the same name or literally affect people of certain alignments (like Holy word just slaughtering any neutral, innocent commoners who hear it in the most angelic and goodly fashion possible).

Or because a paladin can kill in self-defense you if you attack him, regardless of your alignment. And then there's the famous saying, "Too much of a good thing." which means too much good can be bad for you. The plane is super charged good and mortals just can't handle it for too long.

1) Pretty sure that saying doesn't mean 'moral good'.
3) 'Too much good explodes you' is pretty weird for something that's positioned as never harming unnecessarily.
3) If it did, that would bring Dragonlance into the conversation and I think none of us want that.

 

[Maxperson]

Except that are actual planes of good and evil powered by (in 3e) divine and profane energies, which are the actual good/evil energies.

The first mention of negative energy being evil is in the BoVD trying to justify undead being evil. And Inflict/Cure spells still aren't tagged as Good or Evil because using those energies has nothing to do with good or evil. Speaking of...

I think you may have forgotten that the inner planes, including the positive and negative energy planes, are the building blocks of all the others. Those good planes are made up of the elements and positive energy(for the goodness.), and the lower planes are made up of the elements and negative energy(for the evil).

You quoted a rules section that say 'affect'. Nothing says they're a [Tag] Action anymore than Fireball is a [Fire] Action.

So tell me how an evil tag affects alignment without being evil.

1) Pretty sure that saying doesn't mean 'moral good'.
3) 'Too much good explodes you' is pretty weird for something that's positioned as never harming unnecessarily.

Again, "too much of a good thing" and all that.

3) If it did, that would bring Dragonlance into the conversation and I think none of us want that.

I don't understand this.

 

[Voadam]

Found a specific example of 3.5 corpses as objects.

Gentle Repose

Target: Corpse touched.

Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

 

[Vaalingrade]

I think you may have forgotten that the inner planes, including the positive and negative energy planes, are the building blocks of all the others. Those good planes are made up of the elements and positive energy(for the goodness.), and the lower planes are made up of the elements and negative energy(for the evil).

That's not something that is ever presented in the books. It's an interesting idea for worldbuilding, but not supported by the rules.

So tell me how an evil tag affects alignment without being evil.

I just did. They either are part of a domain or literally affect people/things based on alignment. Magics Circles hedge aligned creatures, the utterance spells hurt everyone not of an alignment. They interact with the target's alignment.

Except Death Watch. Deathwatch is drunk.

Again, "too much of a good thing" and all that.

Really pushing the 'good' in all senses of the word.

I don't understand this.

In Dragonlance, being too good wraps around into persecution and authoritarianism somehow to the point that the Good thing for the gods to do is annihilate every man, woman and child living in the same city as the one 'too good' guy and ending society.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Found a specific example of 3.5 corpses as objects.

Gentle Repose

Target: Corpse touched.

Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

Most importantly, if a corpse isn't an object, they can't be wielded as an improvised weapon and no one wants to live in a world without cadaver-chucks.