D&D General Railroads, Illusionism, and Participationism

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pemerton

Legend
I guess I'm wondering. In either of those games can you describe a sequence of play where the players would come to a cliff. Players try to climb the cliff. They fail their climb check (or whatever is being used for this in those games). Giant Birds are introduced. Those birds try to grab and carry off a player?

In reverse order I'm picturing:
Player reacts and tries to fight off the birds. (Potentially setting up a hard move if unsuccessful).
Soft Move - Giant Birds are introduced and attempting to grab and carry a player off.
Player reaction - starts climbing the cliff (there's now a pause in the conversation).
***Not sure what caused the cliff to get introduced in the first place.

Does this essentially describe how such a scene would work in one of those games?
I don't quite get the question, in part because I don't think I fully understand your reverse order.

I will talk about AW rather than DW because I know its player-side moves better. (There are other posters in this thread - eg @Manbearcat - who know the DW moves inside out.)

In AW declaring I climb a cliff does not, per se, trigger a move. In some circumstances it might be Acting Under Fire, but let's suppose that it's not.

So the player says, speaking for their PC, I climb the cliff - maybe they think they can find some pre-apocalyptic oasis at the top of it, or on the other side of the mountains.

Now the conversational momentum/expectation shifts to the GM, who is thus expected to make a move. Generally, this should be a soft move. Nothing in what I've described so far sounds like handing the GM an opportunity on a golden platter, so there's no reason to depart from the default. So the GM narrates that giant birds fly down from the top of the cliff, and start harassing the PC.

Now there are a lot of things the player might do in response: try and scare the birds off; or offer them some food to placate them; or shoot them; or find a cave to hide in until nightfall; or etc, etc. Let's say that the player declares "I'm not going to be put off by these birds: I keep climbing!" Now the PC is acting under fire, so the GM calls for the appropriate check. Let's suppose the player's result on the check is 6 or down. Now the GM is entitled to make as hard and direct a move as they like. This might be that a bird grabs the PC and carries them off. (Depending on the context, this might be Separating the PCs, or Putting someone in a spot, or even Providing an opportunity with a cost.)

If your question is, how would the PC come to be at a cliff? Well, there could be myriad ways. Maybe there was a cliff on the map drawn up during the first session. Maybe a character Opened Their Mind to the Psychic Maelstrom and had a vision of a cliff. Was learning of the cliff a good thing, or a bad thing? In the abstract it could be either - it could be a good thing, that paradise is possible if only we can scale the cliff; or a bad thing - the only possibility of paradise is almost impossible to obtain, being at the top of that cliff!

This is where @Ovinomancer's remark upthread, that I gently teased him about, becomes apposite:
in fiction, almost all acts of authoring are pretty much the same thing. RPGs are really about the constraints on how that authoring takes place - what can be authored, who can author it, when can it be authored, and how do they author it?
From the point of view of the process of authorship, and the way the game structures this, the cliffs could equally well be an ocean, the giant birds equally well be sharks. Of course the colour matters a great deal to the actual experience of play, and it establishes fictional positioning (a rope and pitons are much more useful if your PC is intending to climb a cliff than if they're intending to sail an ocean), and it may have thematic or emotional significance.

But in the structure of play, the questions are the same: what has prompted the need for the GM to make a move? is this a soft move or a hard one? is it a threat or a cost or an opportunity? if the player succeeded on their move, am I honouring that success?

In the fiction, the PC may be engaged in a great expedition or journey, to the top of the cliff or the middle of the ocean. But the player is not, even metaphorically, on a comparable journey. They are not moving their game piece across a map, neither literally nor even metaphorically. They are engaged in a process for structuring the acts of authorship by reference to those key concepts: why is a move being made? if it's the player, did they succeed or fail? if it's the GM, is it soft or hard? is it a threat or a cost or an opportunity?

That is, all fictional framing and consequences in both story now and traditional games only exist because the GM wanted to include those fictional details in those games and then had the power to actually include them.

<snip>

If D&D told the DM to fudge and railroad players into particular framing and consequences we wouldn't say that's not railroading just because the D&D system (or module) is having the DM do those things.

So I don't find the excuse that 'the system had me do it' as a persuasive excuse for why something isn't force. It might very well not be force, but there's some other reason it's not.
I've repeatedly posted the reason. Its the contrast between "backstory first" and "situation first". I've unpacked this in terms of steps in the process of framing and of adjudication.

It's not very mysterious! It only becomes mysterious if you don't take seriously that "backstory fist" and "situation first" is a genuine contrast.
 
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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I've repeatedly posted the reason. Its the contrast between "backstory first" and "situation first". I've unpacked this in terms of steps in the process of framing and of adjudication.
In case it's not clear, the point I'm making is that the very process of framing and adjucation in story now games (and really all rpgs) is a process that allows the GM to select particular fiction he wants to introduce into the game (via soft moves in your most recent example) and also to select consequences that he wants to include in the fiction. Being able to select particular fiction to introduce and to select consequences is a form of force. So being story now is not in my view a valid reason either.
 

pemerton

Legend
In case it's not clear, the point I'm making is that the very process of framing and adjucation in story now games (and really all rpgs) is a process that allows the GM to select particular fiction he wants to introduce into the game (via soft moves in your most recent example) and also to select consequences that he wants to include in the fiction.
Who do you think disagrees with this?

Being able to select particular fiction to introduce and to select consequences is a form of force.
Why?

It's a form of decision-making. Just like in bog-standard D&D, the GM can decide whether the barkeep is a retired fighter, or a retired rogue, or not retired at all! Or the GM can decide whether the Orc archer shoots at PC 1 or PC 2 That's not force; in the first case, it's just writing up the setting; in the second case, it's just declaring an action for the NPC.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I don't quite get the question, in part because I don't think I fully understand your reverse order.

I will talk about AW rather than DW because I know its player-side moves better. (There are other posters in this thread - eg @Manbearcat - who know the DW moves inside out.)

In AW declaring I climb a cliff does not, per se, trigger a move. In some circumstances it might be Acting Under Fire, but let's suppose that it's not.

So the player says, speaking for their PC, I climb the cliff - maybe they think they can find some pre-apocalyptic oasis at the top of it, or on the other side of the mountains.

Now the conversational momentum/expectation shifts to the GM, who is thus expected to make a move. Generally, this should be a soft move. Nothing in what I've described so far sounds like handing the GM an opportunity on a golden platter, so there's no reason to depart from the default. So the GM narrates that giant birds fly down from the top of the cliff, and start harassing the PC.

Now there are a lot of things the player might do in response: try and scare the birds off; or offer them some food to placate them; or shoot them; or find a cave to hide in until nightfall; or etc, etc. Let's say that the player declares "I'm not going to be put off by these birds: I keep climbing!" Now the PC is acting under fire, so the GM calls for the appropriate check. Let's suppose the player's result on the check is 6 or down. Now the GM is entitled to make as hard and direct a move as they like. This might be that a bird grabs the PC and carries them off. (Depending on the context, this might be Separating the PCs, or Putting someone in a spot, or even Providing an opportunity with a cost.)

If your question is, how would the PC come to be at a cliff? Well, there could be myriad ways. Maybe there was a cliff on the map drawn up during the first session. Maybe a character Opened Their Mind to the Psychic Maelstrom and had a vision of a cliff. Was learning of the cliff a good thing, or a bad thing? In the abstract it could be either - it could be a good thing, that paradise is possible if only we can scale the cliff; or a bad thing - the only possibility of paradise is almost impossible to obtain, being at the top of that cliff!

This is where @Ovinomancer's remark upthread, that I gently teased him about, becomes apposite:
From the point of view of the process of authorship, and the way the game structures this, the cliffs could equally well be an ocean, the giant birds equally well be sharks. Of course the colour matters a great deal to the actual experience of play, and it establishes fictional positioning (a rope and pitons are much more useful if your PC is intending to climb a cliff than if they're intending to sail an ocean), and it may have thematic or emotional significance.

But in the structure of play, the questions are the same: what has prompted the need for the GM to make a move? is this a soft move or a hard one? is it a threat or a cost or an opportunity? if the player succeeded on their move, am I honouring that success?

In the fiction, the PC may be engaged in a great expedition or journey, to the top of the cliff or the middle of the ocean. But the player is not, even metaphorically, on a comparable journey. They are not moving their game piece across a map, neither literally nor even metaphorically. They are engaged in a process for structuring the acts of authorship by reference to those key concepts: why is a move being made? if it's the player, did they succeed or fail? if it's the GM, is it soft or hard? is it a threat or a cost or an opportunity?

I've repeatedly posted the reason. Its the contrast between "backstory first" and "situation first". I've unpacked this in terms of steps in the process of framing and of adjudication.

It's not very mysterious! It only becomes mysterious if you don't take seriously that "backstory fist" and "situation first" is a genuine contrast.
Thanks, just was validating that my understanding of the flow there was essentially correct and from everything you are saying that seems to be the case.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Who do you think disagrees with this?

Why?

It's a form of decision-making. Just like in bog-standard D&D, the GM can decide whether the barkeep is a retired fighter, or a retired rogue, or not retired at all! Or the GM can decide whether the Orc archer shoots at PC 1 or PC 2 That's not force; in the first case, it's just writing up the setting; in the second case, it's just declaring an action for the NPC.
Maybe the best way to say what I'm saying is: 'Authorship is one type of Force'. Why you asked? Because if you don't have the ability to force the fiction to adhere to your will then you don't have authorship.
 

pemerton

Legend
If we look at the actual practice of D&D play - at least as I'm familiar with it - what's the number-one reason for using Force? To ensure a satisfactory story. (A "palatable narrative", as @prabe put it upthread.) The satisfaction/palatability is ensured by (i) pre-authorship, and (ii) "curation" on the way through via the use of Force to make sure action declarations don't perturb things, and to make sure the right scenes are framed.

What's the main risk in the use of Force? That the players arc up!, because the actual impact on the fiction of their action declarations is not what they thought/hoped/expected it would be.

If we look at the design rationale of "story now" RPGs, it's self-evident and self-proclaimed - to produce a satisfactory story without needing to us Force. This is intended to be achieved via a combination of techniques (for framing, resolution etc) and accompanying principles.

What's the main risk in "story now" RPGing? As per my post upthread, that the story falls flat, or feels contrived, or in some other way is not satisfactory.
 

pemerton

Legend
Maybe the best way to say what I'm saying is: 'Authorship is one type of Force'. Why you asked? Because if you don't have the ability to force the fiction to adhere to your will then you don't have authorship.
Well, as @Ovinomancer has said, this usage just means we have to find another word to describe what the word "Force" was coined to describe in the RPGing context.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Well, as @Ovinomancer has said, this usage just means we have to find another word to describe what the word "Force" was coined to describe in the RPGing context.
That’s easy. You just talk about types of force. Which actually would make for a pretty good and interesting discussion by comparing the types of force various styles of play employ and talking about how they support that style of play and the risks associated with those types of force.
 

If we look at the actual practice of D&D play - at least as I'm familiar with it - what's the number-one reason for using Force? To ensure a satisfactory story. (A "palatable narrative", as @prabe put it upthread.) The satisfaction/palatability is ensured by (i) pre-authorship, and (ii) "curation" on the way through via the use of Force to make sure action declarations don't perturb things, and to make sure the right scenes are framed.

The OSR alternative to the adventure-path playstyle is to have a world that is as neutral and dispassionate as possible when it comes to the PCs, so that the GMs role is largely reactive, as there is not set “story” to pursue. This is the worlds without number approach. Terms like “story” or “story-before” or “backstory” are a bit unclear for me because I feel they don’t distinguish very much between the build a world and then react approach, on the one hand, and the here’s the plot that will be followed approach on the other. This is the tomb of horrors/dragon lance split that you reference above. Anyway, when running an OSR game I find my use of force is very meta: I think the players are getting bored so I present a challenge or skip to the next interesting scene, or we are in rl running out of time and I want the players to finish whatever they were working on. But its interesting because in that context at least, force will appear exactly as hard scene framing. I’m almost inclined to say scene framing beyond “you wake up and its raining today, what do you do” would be perceived as infringing on agency.

I like the term “story absent,” but again, there is a world to be built, so it’s unclear if that applies
 

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