D&D General Railroads, Illusionism, and Participationism

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Thomas Shey

Legend
I don't recall ever playing a game which has mechanics to trigger flashbacks, but I have occasionally (very rarely) used flashbacks while GMing. I think it can easily be a tad awkward from player perspective though. At least to me it has potential to cause an immersion clitch. "So I knew all that the whole time?" "That traumatic thing actually happened chronologically just before the first part of the session where we all were behaving like we had no care in the world?"

It is, but I can't help but think other than avoiding the whole concept (which is important to certain kinds of genres and stories), you only really have two options: flashbacks or a really bland "preparation" currency that serves the same purpose without explaining itself.
 

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It is, but I can't help but think other than avoiding the whole concept (which is important to certain kinds of genres and stories), you only really have two options: flashbacks or a really bland "preparation" currency that serves the same purpose without explaining itself.
Sure. I certainly understand why it is done.
 

I'm personally not a very big fan of currencies that don't have a corresponding fictional existence. Stuff like Willpower in World of Darkness is fine. So are strings in Monsterhearts. Mostly I think we rely too much on currency to mediate authority when directed judgement generally works better in my experience. Generally roleplaying game design seems overly afraid of its players. That we cannot let characters do amazing things without somehow limiting it. Pathfinder Second Edition and Exalted Third Edition have kind of changed my mind on that point. Nothing breaks if characters can just kind of be good at the things they are good at pretty much all the time.
For me it is more of an "Hey, this resource game is fun!" thing. I mean, in HoML you get 8 power points after every recovery. Manage them well and things go in your favor, probably. Its a challenge though, and just like in 4e there's always the question "should I burn this resource now, or expose myself to more failure/danger and hope that has a lesser cost?" Remember, even DW has SKILLED PLAY, a clever player knows to invoke certain moves and acquire forward or hold to apply to a critical situation. Heck, a lot of the playbook moves are basically there simply to enable that!

I do get the point, some games are simply a bit more engaged with tactics than others, like 4e.
 

For me it is more of an "Hey, this resource game is fun!" thing. I mean, in HoML you get 8 power points after every recovery. Manage them well and things go in your favor, probably. Its a challenge though, and just like in 4e there's always the question "should I burn this resource now, or expose myself to more failure/danger and hope that has a lesser cost?" Remember, even DW has SKILLED PLAY, a clever player knows to invoke certain moves and acquire forward or hold to apply to a critical situation. Heck, a lot of the playbook moves are basically there simply to enable that!

I do get the point, some games are simply a bit more engaged with tactics than others, like 4e.
But it easily gets awkward if the currencies are meta. Then the players are making tactical decisions based on meta knowledge and the characters act on those plans... why? I fully get that tactical resource management can be fun, but I want it to at least to some degree correspond the decision making process of the characters.
 

Aldarc

Legend
But it easily gets awkward if the currencies are meta. Then the players are making tactical decisions based on meta knowledge and the characters act on those plans... why? I fully get that tactical resource management can be fun, but I want it to at least to some degree correspond the decision making process of the characters.
IMO, while I understand that some people dislike meta-currencies, I almost counter-intuitively find that they can help better align the player with their character's roleplay. IME, there can be a conflict of interest between playing the character with integrity and a wide variety of meta- play goals (e.g., play-to-win, optimal strategies, table social pressure, etc.), which can can subtly encourage players to forego their characterization, with players supplying post hoc rationale for their characters that justify these character-breaks.
 

So you're saying it doesn't matter in the Blades who the characters are, the content is still the same? :unsure:
Well, to be clear I've not had the chance to play it, and barely read any of it, so take it with a grain of salt, but BitD is a VERY narrowly focused RPG, at least when compared with something like D&D. The PCs are members of a 'gang' which exists within a very specific milieu. The characters enact a very specific set of actions, going on jobs, downtime, etc. and there are a number of subsystems that govern things like vices, stress, incarceration, etc. So, yes, every game of BitD, because they all fit within this structure, will have a lot of the same elements. However, what the PCs engage with, whom they take jobs from, the types of them, their personal interests, and the choices they make in play, are under heavy player control, and the players can develop specific elements of fiction by how they play. Still, yes, it is a much narrower game than BW or my own game, in which the scope of action is not really limited by the game itself very much (although the genre is, at least unless you develop your own variant).
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
This is my point, entire. It seems at least one person arguing against it actually fully agrees?
My take on it is that the underlying adventure is often almost irrelevant to what is happening at the table in any given moment, so why bother worrying about it.

Put another way: when looking at the moment-to-moment run of play maybe it's the adventures that are interchangeable, rather than the characters.
Well, yeah, that's all they ever get in 1e. You've said that what matters to being different in play is, well, they only way they can possibly be different in play, especially when you deploy independent GM adventures rather than tailor to PC dramatic needs. Of course this is the result.
It may be all they ever get in 1e; my point is that it's also all they need.
 

But it easily gets awkward if the currencies are meta. Then the players are making tactical decisions based on meta knowledge and the characters act on those plans... why? I fully get that tactical resource management can be fun, but I want it to at least to some degree correspond the decision making process of the characters.
I'm not sure why. I mean, its a game, many games have currency of some kind. We used to play PACE, which is a diceless token game. The players make up fiction about what they do, and the GM frames them into scenes to address their dramatic needs. As they go through these the the player can expend currency to specify the outcomes of conflicts. They can even 'borrow' from the GM if they really want, but that means the GM is going to have more of their own chits to come back harder with later! So there's a dynamic of escalation of the story that can happen, and if it isn't happening, well the GM should probably up the ante fictionally. There's a bit more to it than that, but there is the essence of it, and action and pressure are the basic focus of play, drama incarnate. Because there are basically no other mechanics, besides you get bonus points if you engage a situation using one of your character's two traits, it works really well. If you want to narrate that as a sort of 'fatigue', 'magic', or whatever depending on the character and milieu, you certain can though.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
IMO, while I understand that some people dislike meta-currencies, I almost counter-intuitively find that they can help better align the player with their character's roleplay. IME, there can be a conflict of interest between playing the character with integrity and a wide variety of meta- play goals (e.g., play-to-win, optimal strategies, table social pressure, etc.), which can can subtly encourage players to forego their characterization, with players supplying post hoc rationale for their characters that justify these character-breaks.

I absolutely agree about conflicts between playing with integrity and optimal play / social pressure. I think that can mostly be resolved in a fairly diegetic way though with currencies and/or mechanics that reflect character emotional states. Really good examples include Apocalypse World, Dogs in the Vineyard, Exalted Third Edition, Monsterhearts, Vampire - The Requiem Second Edition and Masks. I know some people see anything that deals with character emotional states as meta. I disagree.
 

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