D&D 5E Philosophy of Greataxe vs. Greatsword

[Mordhau]

WotC almost gave us a weapon system that complied with an item budget. I wish they had just made all weapons comply, and then added a sidebar explicitly saying "If you want to invent a new weapon, go for it. Just use this system."

Die progression: 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 1d12

Base damage for 1H simple weapons: 1d6

Qualities that increase damage one die: Martial, Two-Handed, Heavy
Qualities that decrease damage one die: Finesse, Light, Reach, Versatile (+1 step if used 2H)

(Note: I'm not quite sure how to fit "thrown" into this. It's advantageous, so it should cost something. Maybe distinguish between "can be thrown" and "must be thrown"?)

Note that some weapons don't fit this model. For example:

• Longsword, Warhammer, and Battle Axe would have to have the Heavy tag added, or damage reduced, in order to be Versatile.
• Rapier is 1d6
• Whip is under budget. So you could make it Light, or Simple, or increase it's damage

Also, I haven't fully through through how ranged weapons fit into this. Because ranged attacks...especially bow/crossbow attacks with their increased range...are so powerful in 5e, I would automatically start one die lower. So maybe short bows end up doing 1d4 and long bows do 1d6. I know, heresy. So maybe have to invent some new tags.

Versatile is a pretty useless category. It shouldn't decrease weapon damage.

I don't think thrown needs to reduce damage. It's fairly limited (weapons with low damage dice, and generally low range). If you want it to reduce damage do it only for weapons that have significant range like the javelin (if the short range is less than you can generally move it shouldn't reduce damage).

 

[Bill Zebub]

Yeah I agree about the versatile thing. And thrown.

The thing is, if they’re “free” then if somebody is making up a new weapon there’s no disincentive to add Versatile and Thrown. Because, why not? And that quickly becomes silly.

Maybe there need to be a few more low-power tags, and you get to pick one.

 

[Mordhau]

Yeah I agree about the versatile thing. And thrown.

The thing is, if they’re “free” then if somebody is making up a new weapon there’s no disincentive to add Versatile and Thrown. Because, why not? And that quickly becomes silly.

Maybe there need to be a few more low-power tags, and you get to pick one.

Thrown weapons cannot be greater than D6 damage.
If a thrown weapon is also finesse than the damage must be reduced by one additional die (beyond that already reduced for finesse).
Only D8 weapons Strength based weapons can be versatile (and basically I think they all are?).

 

[ECMO3]

Only D8 weapons Strength based weapons can be versatile (and basically I think they all are?).

Morning Star, War Pick and Flail are not versatile.

 

[Bupp]

I haven't gone through with it, but I've been pondering just doing class hit die based damage. Barbarians use d12 for damage, no matter what weapon they use, while fighters do d10 with spears, swords, and even knives. Even if you wizard picks up a sword, he only does d6 damage.

You use whatever weapon fits your image for your character.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I haven't gone through with it, but I've been pondering just doing class hit die based damage. Barbarians use d12 for damage, no matter what weapon they use, while fighters do d10 with spears, swords, and even knives. Even if you wizard picks up a sword, he only does d6 damage.

You use whatever weapon fits your image for your character.

I like this idea. I don't think class-dipping really will be an issue, but I think it means the death of twohanded weapons without some adjustment.

 

[Bupp]

I got the idea from 13th Age, but have misremembered it. It is damage by class.
Here's the fighter table. Fighter – 13th Age SRD

Melee Weapons

Weapon Category	One-Handed	Two-Handed
Small	1d4 dagger	1d6 club
Light or Simple	1d6 shortsword, hand axe	1d8 spear
Heavy or Martial	1d8 longsword, warhammer	1d10 greatsword, greataxe

Ranged Weapons

	Thrown	Crossbow	Bow
Small	1d4 dagger	1d4 hand crossbow	—
Light or Simple	1d6 javelin, axe	1d6 light crossbow	1d6 shortbow
Heavy or Martial	—	1d8 heavy crossbow	1d8 longbow

Compared to the rogue, who is nasty with a melee dagger. Rogue – 13th Age SRD

MeleeWeapons

	One-Handed	Two-Handed
Small	1d8 dagger	1d6 club
Light or Simple	1d8 shortsword, wicked knife	1d8 spear
Heavy or Martial	1d8 (-2 atk) longsword, scimitar	1d10 (-2 atk) greatsword

Ranged Weapon

	Thrown	Crossbow	Bow
Small	1d4 dagger	1d4 hand crossbow	—
Light or Simple	1d6 javelin, axe	1d6 light crossbow	1d6 shortbow
Heavy or Martial	—	1d8 (–1 atk) heavy crossbow	1d8 (-2 atk) longbow

 

[Mordhau]

I got the idea from 13th Age, but have misremembered it. It is damage by class.
Here's the fighter table. Fighter – 13th Age SRD

Melee Weapons

Weapon Category	One-Handed	Two-Handed
Small	1d4 dagger	1d6 club
Light or Simple	1d6 shortsword, hand axe	1d8 spear
Heavy or Martial	1d8 longsword, warhammer	1d10 greatsword, greataxe

Ranged Weapons

	Thrown	Crossbow	Bow
Small	1d4 dagger	1d4 hand crossbow	—
Light or Simple	1d6 javelin, axe	1d6 light crossbow	1d6 shortbow
Heavy or Martial	—	1d8 heavy crossbow	1d8 longbow

Compared to the rogue, who is nasty with a melee dagger. Rogue – 13th Age SRD

MeleeWeapons

	One-Handed	Two-Handed
Small	1d8 dagger	1d6 club
Light or Simple	1d8 shortsword, wicked knife	1d8 spear
Heavy or Martial	1d8 (-2 atk) longsword, scimitar	1d10 (-2 atk) greatsword

Ranged Weapon

	Thrown	Crossbow	Bow
Small	1d4 dagger	1d4 hand crossbow	—
Light or Simple	1d6 javelin, axe	1d6 light crossbow	1d6 shortbow
Heavy or Martial	—	1d8 (–1 atk) heavy crossbow	1d8 (-2 atk) longbow

One thing to note, those weapons listed are just examples. If a Fighter wants to use a maul, or a two handed flail or a great-axe they all also do 1d10.

The fighters 1d4 with a dagger, is mostly there to tell you that a Fighter takes a penalty for using a small easily concealable and throwable weapon while the Rogue doesn't.

One thing, of course, is that 13th Age basically piggybacks off the fact that it's assumed audiences grok basic D20 concepts, eg - what it a martial vs a simple weapon, so they don't really need to list them - Just apply common sense.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Hmm... the reason it works for 13th Age is the fact that all classes deal one weapon die per level. So a rogue level 5 with a dagger = 5d8. 2nd level fighter with twohanded 2d10 (vs. 2d8 one handed).
I really like this. But it is hard to port to 5e. And thus, twohanded loses out again, even if brought to d12.
(But I love the rogue d8 dagger damage!)

 

[Mordhau]

Hmm... the reason it works for 13th Age is the fact that all classes deal one weapon die per level. So a rogue level 5 with a dagger = 5d8. 2nd level fighter with twohanded 2d10 (vs. 2d8 one handed).
I really like this. But it is hard to port to 5e. And thus, twohanded loses out again, even if brought to d12.
(But I love the rogue d8 dagger damage!)

That's just a matter of getting the numbers right.

If Great Weapon Style was 2D12 take highest then the average result would be very slightly (by a negligible amount) better than it is now with 2d12. If you feel that's too low then you an always bump up the damage to say 2d8.

It's worth noting in 13th Age that shields only grant +1 AC, so two handed weapons don't lose out so much. (It's that - not the scaling dice, which makes the 13th Age numbers work - because while the gap in raw numbers between weapon types grows by level the percentage of monster hps you reduce on a hit doesn't really change).

(In fact, in a lot of ways the 5e Fighting styles would work better if shields were +1 and Defence style required a shield).