Games Workshop notes that space fascism would be bad

[Fenris-77]

Hey, technically, I have no issue with the Primaris models. Nice proportions, look good, etc etc. But it is what it is. "Oh your normal marines cannot ride in this, and vise versa' its just too obvious.

The power armour uses different chargers. Primaris are all on USB-C so those old fashioned micro USB ports on the older armour don't fit. Watcha gonna do.

 

[MGibster]

I want my topless demons back.

Generally speaking, I don't object to those kinds of miniatures myself. But I wouldn't want to use them in an area where the general public would see them.

The lore is an afterthought. Its planned obsolescence, and nothing more. GW has mentioned that Marines outsold everything else they did, all of Fantasy alone, but you can only go back to that well so many times.

I don't think the lore is an afterthought these days. It was an afterthought back in the 80s and 90s, back when it was just a thin veneer giving us a reason why my little metal soldiers were trying to murder your little metal soldiers. But there are quite a few people today who enjoy Warhammer 40k books and computer games who will never play the tabletop game let alone buy a miniature. But the lore is still 100% designed to make money.

Hey, technically, I have no issue with the Primaris models. Nice proportions, look good, etc etc. But it is what it is. "Oh your normal marines cannot ride in this, and vise versa' its just too obvious.

They do look better than the old ones. The technology available today allows for better proportions and more dea

 

[Blue Orange]

My opinion (and it is only that) is that a certain fraction of the population really wants to do the 'my team against your team' thing, and GW is always going to play to that. So we are never going to get really socially conscious WH40K lore--I'd focus on games like FATE or Powered by the Apocalypse that are better at nonviolent conflict resolution.

I think the best thing GW could do is have diverse human minis. After all, fascism requires an enemy--but nobody says it has to be a human enemy in a world where you're fighting Eldar, Tyranids, and Orks. (Indeed, inter-ethnic human conflict would be ruinous.) So the descendants of all the various populations of the earth are united against the external threat. This is how new polities often amalgamate from previous ones in real life.

Technically, it's the far future, so if anything most of their ethnicities should be mixed--after 40 millennia all the various gene strains are going to be mixed together in ways we can't anticipate. None of the minis should be from any recognizable ethnic group. But I don't think that would sell nearly as well. Maybe just have each mini set be a 'variety pack' of different ethnic groups, like in US WW2 movies where you had the Italian guy, the Irish guy, the midwestern farm kid, etc., but in this case representing different groups from around the world.

 

[Dire Bare]

This sounds like an Americanisation of the product, to appeal to American teenagers without offending their mothers. Breasts weren't traditionally a big deal in the UK - and DEFINITELY not in continental Europe. Ethnic diversity is probably more important in the US market too, though the UK & European mores have been Americanising, especially in recent decades with the Internet.

Perhaps with the demon boobs, but (again) Warhammer's audience is more global. The US isn't the only place where boobs are to be hidden. And when it comes to ethnic diversity, the entire world is more diverse than it was in the 80s, including the UK itself.

It's not Americanisation . . . which is Americans taking something and making it more suitable for our own tastes and culture . . . it's GW, a still very British company, working hard to broaden their appeal world-wide. The US is certainly a very important market worth catering to, but not the only one.

 

[MGibster]

My opinion (and it is only that) is that a certain fraction of the population really wants to do the 'my team against your team' thing, and GW is always going to play to that. So we are never going to get really socially conscious WH40K lore--I'd focus on games like FATE or Powered by the Apocalypse that are better at nonviolent conflict resolution.

Well, yeah. Those people tend to be the ones who purchase a tabletop war game specifically for their little plastic men to pound their opponent's little plastic men into the ground. I sure as heck don't want to play a game where my Necrons invite the Tau over for a tea party or to hunt truffles or something.

I think the best thing GW could do is have diverse human minis. After all, fascism requires an enemy--but nobody says it has to be a human enemy in a world where you're fighting Eldar, Tyranids, and Orks. (Indeed, inter-ethnic human conflict would be ruinous.) So the descendants of all the various populations of the earth are united against the external threat. This is how new polities often amalgamate from previous ones in real life.

That's pretty much what they do now. All xenos (aliens) are threats according to Imperium doctrine. But at least in the text this doctrine is false, as humans and xenos have formed alliances and societies that served everyone's interest. But then the Imperium came along and wiped them all out human and xenos alike. The truth is that he Imperium could probably make a lasting peace with the Eldar. Probably not so much with the Tyranids or Orks though.

Technically, it's the far future, so if anything most of their ethnicities should be mixed--after 40 millennia all the various gene strains are going to be mixed together in ways we can't anticipate. None of the minis should be from any recognizable ethnic group. But I don't think that would sell nearly as well. Maybe just have each mini set be a 'variety pack' of different ethnic groups, like in US WW2 movies where you had the Italian guy, the Irish guy, the midwestern farm kid, etc., but in this case representing different groups from around the world.

38,000 years from now there will likely be "races" that don't even exist today. And as far as painting miniatures goes, how do you model a group of Imperial Guard to show one is Italian, another Greek, and yet another Irish?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I don't believe that's true at all. I think the core demographic are people who think Space Marines look totally radical and tubular to the max. Kids still say tubular and radical to the max, right? I think the majority of people who get into the game first select the army they find aesthetically pleasing. I picked the Imperial Fists, Necrons, and Imperial Knights because I think they look sick as hell.


Given the increased number of people who are into Warhammer either through computer games, fiction, or the table top miniatures games over the last two decades I'd say their strategy is working. GW has also worked to include more women and people of color by including them in the fiction, the artwork, and even as examples of miniatures in their ranges. (Though there are valid complaints that this has been done to slowly.) They've also toned down some of the decidedly non-kid friendly aspects of the setting by getting rid of (ignoring) previously published lore and ceasing production of certain models (Juan Diaz daemonettes being the best example).


Getting people to buy new models is part of it. But the Primaris Marines also represent something we hadn't seen in 40k for a long, long while. New technology. Well, recovered technology I guess. Not just with the Primaris Marines themselves but with some of their equipment and vehicles.


Okay, they have a broader market now than they did 20 years ago. I don't know how broad the market can get, but we'll see.

Marines look cool to people who like ur-fascist iconography combined with space warriors. That's not a moral failing or something, it's aesthetics, but that's the point. Generally people who are minorities (of any kind) are going to be less into it, particularly because the kind of people who attack and oppress them often tend to be into that kind of iconography. It's notable that peak space-fascism was pre-Primaris though - Primaris definitely go space warrior a bit more and look, well, more American and less "Crusader in Space".

That said, as oppression relents somewhat, that iconography becomes less prevalent and less linked to hate. But let's not pretend white supremacist iconography and the Imperium of Man, especially the Marines and factions of the IG, don't have an enormous crossover. That's the whole reason we're having this discussion.

Interestingly re: racism I feel like GW was very definitely anti-racist in the early 1990s, for example, they basically made out that the Deathwing were mostly people from a Native American ethnicity/culture (admittedly this is crude 1990s anti-racism but still), but sort of gave up on it the 3rd edition to like 6th edition period, and even retcon'd that example. I'm sure they're anti-racist now but I think they're a bit confused about the whole thing.

As for the broader market, most of that has simply come from not being such stingy idiots with their IP. They used to have an utterly paranoid attitude that if any game company made basically a good game with their IP, it was a threat to them, particularly if it was a wargame. Hence them not allowing TW:Warhammer until AoS took over on fantasy. But they've clearly realized that was wrong, and are now actually working with Creative Assembly to leverage the new Oldhammer stuff. Their IP still needs to broaden out, and pushing Primaris Marines and the Empire isn't how that's going to happen, frankly. Not unless they do the long-suggested plotline of the Emperor regaining consciousness and going "WHAT THE ACTUAL F...." at what the Imperium, or the whole Rebel Marine thing. I do think one those may well eventually happen.

As for "the first new/recovered tech!", well, not really. All through Rogue Trader and 2E that was happening all the time. It just got shoved down with the general attitudes of the 3rd edition era and onwards.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Interestingly re: racism I feel like GW was very definitely anti-racist in the early 1990s, for example, they basically made out that the Deathwing were mostly people from a Native American ethnicity/culture (admittedly this is crude 1990s anti-racism but still), but sort of gave up on it the 3rd edition to like 6th edition period, and even retcon'd that example. I'm sure they're anti-racist now but I think they're a bit confused about the whole thing.

... Holy s***, I had always noticed the feathers and never put together the greater meaning. It changed towards something more akin to Polish winged lancers, I think, but I had never known this before you pointed it out and I looked it up. Their personal markings are absolutely meant to be that, as well as some of the facepaint I remember seeing on some models. Wow.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

... Holy s***, I had always noticed the feathers and never put together the greater meaning. It changed towards something more akin to Polish winged lancers, I think, but I had never known this before you pointed it out and I looked it up. Their personal markings are absolutely meant to be that, as well as some of the facepaint I remember seeing on some models. Wow.

Yup. There's an entire short story in a Deathwing-heavy issue of White Dwarf from the early 90s or very late 80s which clarified it, they're definitely Native American back then.

 

[MGibster]

Marines look cool to people who like ur-fascist iconography combined with space warriors. That's not a moral failing or something, it's aesthetics, but that's the point.

It's also cool to people who don't have a fascist bone in their body. When I saw Space Marines in 1989-1990 I honestly didn't think to myself, "Hey, those future fascist look hella-cool!" Partly because we didn't say hella back then.

Interestingly re: racism I feel like GW was very definitely anti-racist in the early 1990s, for example, they basically made out that the Deathwing were mostly people from a Native American ethnicity/culture (admittedly this is crude 1990s anti-racism but still), but sort of gave up on it the 3rd edition to like 6th edition period, and even retcon'd that example. I'm sure they're anti-racist now but I think they're a bit confused about the whole thing.

I feel as though GW would run into hot water for appropriation if they tried that these days.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It's also cool to people who don't have a fascist bone in their body. When I saw Space Marines in 1989-1990 I honestly didn't think to myself, "Hey, those future fascist look hella-cool!" Partly because we didn't say hella back then.


I feel as though GW would run into hot water for appropriation if they tried that these days.

Oh yeah, if it was as crude as that they would. The Salamanders being actual Black guys was a thing from that era that I think they later retcon'd too. That's what I meant by crude 1990s anti-racism. But it had a big impact on how I saw the setting, a positive one. And retreating from that in 3rd edition and onwards they didn't really go anywhere good or diverse until more recently and then only arguably.

As for not a fascist bone in their body, wellllll, I think there's a line and some SM and IG figures crossed it, again esp. in 3rd edition and onwards. Like the Death Korps of Krieg and some of the Stormtrooper-type guys. Yeah they try to model them on WW1 stuff a bit but it ends up a very fashy place. Like if anyone loved them, I think their claim to have not a fascist bone in their body might be honestly meant but the result inadequate self-examination. I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion about how important aesthetics are to fascism, this isn't the place but like I am sort of happy the Primaris generally look less fashy. Unfortunately some then wander into "modern military" fetishism (in the non-sexual sense), which is gross and seems setting inappropriate to me.