Wheel of Time Discussion - Spoilers(with book spoilers)

[Parmandur]

I'm wondering if and how they might include Min. My guess is she will be written out, although who knows.

I double checked: Alexander is on the cast list for thr two remaining episodes as Min Farshaw: so she is probably in Fal Dara, and will be involved with using her prophetic gift for leading into the climax.

 

[Mordhau]

I'm almost halfway through a re-read of Eye of the World. Some observations from the comparison:

- The overall tone of the book is younger - not quite young adult, but without the "adults only" elements that the show slips in. It was clearly written with a broader age-range in mind.

Some elements in the book that aren't present in the series:

• Two Rivers: Rand talks to and kills a Trolloc in the book; Tam is more capable with the sword. Watch Hill presumably doesn't exist in the series. And of course Thom shows up in Two Rivers and travels with them from the beginning.
• Baerlon is completely absent. Min (yet); Rand's encounter with the Whitecloaks; Moiraine using illusion to become giant.
• Shadar Logoth: Mordeth. The mashadar is depicted as black fungus rather than mist.
• Wilderness: Rand, Mat and Thom on the riverboat (including Rand's first apparent channeling*). Elyas Manchera and the wolves.

And of course, so far in the book, Logain has only been mentioned - he hasn't shown up in the actual book yet.

That's where I'm at - they're not quite at Caemlyn. Anyhow, I can see why they excised those parts and folded the essential elements into other aspects of the story. I suppose if they had done a 10-12 episode season, they could have done a full episode on Baerlon. I'm wondering if and how they might include Min. My guess is she will be written out, although who knows.

In general, to some extent, reading the book has really illustrated how the tv series feels like a summation of the books. I think they're doing a good job of it, but reading the books, I really feel the lack of depth and breadth in the series--about the world and Jordan's characteristic slow, and thus immersive, pace. Some of the confusion non-book readers experience might have been alleviated with a longer season. I think 12 would have been ideal, and I hope future seasons are longer (I'm guessing they'll be 10 episodes).
*

It was a thing at the time for almost all Fantasy Epics to be Bildungsromans (Coming of Age stories). The whole chosen one cliche is a part of that*. Think of the Belgarian, or Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, or even A Song of Ice and FIre with it's five Stark childen.

* The chosen one is much misunderstood. It's basically a metaphor for the growing individual coming to realise they have adult responsibilities and that living up to them is a part of growing up. It's not really meant to be taken literally. (Of course, once fantasy epics started to increasingly sprawl into ensemble rather than individual character focused stories, then that whole metaphor gets muddied anyway).

 

[Parmandur]

It was a thing at the time for almost all Fantasy Epics to be Bildungsromans (Coming of Age stories). The whole chosen one cliche is a part of that*. Think of the Belgarian, or Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, or even A Song of Ice and FIre with it's five Stark childen.

* The chosen one is much misunderstood. It's basically a metaphor for the growing individual coming to realise they have adult responsibilities and that living up to them is a part of growing up. It's not really meant to be taken literally. (Of course, once fantasy epics started to increasingly sprawl into ensemble rather than individual character focused stories, then that whole metaphor gets muddied anyway).

Originally, the three guys were going to be one character, who was middle aged. Jordan came to feel that his plan for the character was too much trauma and event for one person, and that younger characters might sell better.

 

[Mercurius]

Originally, the three guys were going to be one character, who was middle aged. Jordan came to feel that his plan for the character was too much trauma and event for one person, and that younger characters might sell better.

Interesting tidbit - didn't know that.

 

[Maxperson]

Moiraine using illusion to become giant.

I could have sworn I saw her do that in the show.

 

[Mercurius]

It was a thing at the time for almost all Fantasy Epics to be Bildungsromans (Coming of Age stories). The whole chosen one cliche is a part of that*. Think of the Belgarian, or Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, or even A Song of Ice and FIre with it's five Stark childen.

* The chosen one is much misunderstood. It's basically a metaphor for the growing individual coming to realise they have adult responsibilities and that living up to them is a part of growing up. It's not really meant to be taken literally. (Of course, once fantasy epics started to increasingly sprawl into ensemble rather than individual character focused stories, then that whole metaphor gets muddied anyway).

Yeah, I know, and while I agree that it is metaphorical, I think there are different approaches to this idea that go beyond simply "growing up with adult responsibilities," which has somewhat mundane connotations -- like paying taxes and stopping at a red light.

Jung would say it has to do with individuation, which is a process whereby the person becomes truly whole, a "full human" (my words, not his) through integrating the conscious and the subconscious. Campbell's hero's journey links this to world mythologies, holding that all--or at least most--myths describe the same basic underlying process. Humanistic and transpersonal psychologies elaborated and varied these themes. For instance, Abraham Maslow discussed "self-actualization" and James Hillman described it as "acorn theory," whereby our seed of potential ("acorn") desires to actualize (as the "oak").

Intrinsic to the idea of the chosen one is a unique destiny of some kind, and a quest to actualize that destiny. There are basic patterns by which this occurs--thus Campbell's framework--but the details of how it unfolds are different for all of us. But my point is that--at least in the framings of Jung, humanistic, and transpersonal psychology--it goes beyond mere psychological maturation. The "child" is not an actual child, but humanity in its pre-actualized form, even larval stage. Thus what we call "adulthood" is merely the basis from which a further, deeper path can unfold, or the "quest for the Grail." Meaning, the Chosen One motif uses the framework of a child becoming an adult as a symbol for the process of self-actualization. Meaning, we're all "chosen" to fulfill our on uniqueness, something that no one else can do, and this process only starts once we leave the home of childhood, be it the Shire or Two Rivers.

I don't think most fantasy authors who employ this motif are consciously using it in that way, but that the mythic archetype points towards this "higher path." Or to put it another way, the "outward journey" of the Chosen One is symbolic of an "inward journey" of self-actualization and/or enlightenment that is not a child becoming an adult, but an adult becoming fully human.

 

[Mordhau]

Yeah, I know, and while I agree that it is metaphorical, I think there are different approaches to this idea that go beyond simply "growing up with adult responsibilities," which has somewhat mundane connotations -- like paying taxes and stopping at a red light.

Jung would say it has to do with individuation, which is a process whereby the person becomes truly whole, a "full human" (my words, not his) through integrating the conscious and the subconscious. Campbell's hero's journey links this to world mythologies, holding that all--or at least most--myths describe the same basic underlying process. Humanistic and transpersonal psychologies elaborated and varied these themes. For instance, Abraham Maslow discussed "self-actualization" and James Hillman described it as "acorn theory," whereby our seed of potential ("acorn") desires to actualize (as the "oak").

Intrinsic to the idea of the chosen one is a unique destiny of some kind, and a quest to actualize that destiny. There are basic patterns by which this occurs--thus Campbell's framework--but the details of how it unfolds are different for all of us. But my point is that--at least in the framings of Jung, humanistic, and transpersonal psychology--it goes beyond mere psychological maturation. The "child" is not an actual child, but humanity in its pre-actualized form, even larval stage. Thus what we call "adulthood" is merely the basis from which a further, deeper path can unfold, or the "quest for the Grail." Meaning, the Chosen One motif uses the framework of a child becoming an adult as a symbol for the process of self-actualization. Meaning, we're all "chosen" to fulfill our on uniqueness, something that no one else can do, and this process only starts once we leave the home of childhood, be it the Shire or Two Rivers.

I don't think most fantasy authors who employ this motif are consciously using it in that way, but that the mythic archetype points towards this "higher path." Or to put it another way, the "outward journey" of the Chosen One is symbolic of an "inward journey" of self-actualization and/or enlightenment that is not a child becoming an adult, but an adult becoming fully human.

I'm very sceptical of anything Jungian and think most of what's going on is happening on a simpler and more straightforward structural level.

At it's most basic level the chosen one is''chosen' because they, and no one else are the protagonist of the story. It's basically a technique for taking the fundamental focus of the story and blowing it up.

In epic fantasy (and in Star Wars) the fundamental end point of the protagonist is to choose between good and evil. By making the protagonist's choice one that has cosmic consequences the story can be blown up to the 'epic' level rather than taking place at an individual level*. Growing up is frequently used to encapsulate this, because it moves from the potential to choose to the necessity to choose.**

* The danger of this is the choice can end up being extremely vacuous, between evil in the abstract and good in the abstract. Epic fantasy works best when it can focus on the individual as a metonym (the part that stands for the whole) of the larger cosmic struggle (Luke's struggle to redeem his father, Frodo's decision to be kind to Smeagol).

** Obviously a lot of this is highly influenced by Tolkien, but it is not actually how it works in Tolkien where the narrative is both more complex and more catholic. LOTR also is not a coming of age story.

 

[HawaiiSteveO]

Sorry if duplicate post, noticed this today . . . Rosamund Pike reading the book on audible

https://www.audible.ca/pd/The-Eye-o...08c-7cb2190a487c&pf_rd_r=3Y51QVDNYYAZG7708HC8

 

[Parmandur]

Sorry if duplicate post, noticed this today . . . Rosamund Pike reading the book on audible

https://www.audible.ca/pd/The-Eye-o...08c-7cb2190a487c&pf_rd_r=3Y51QVDNYYAZG7708HC8

Wow, she does a great performance there: the sample is a pretty good case for Jordan's prose as good, readable text, and a good example of why it took him several hundred pages per major plot point.

 

[Bolares]

Wow, she does a great performance there: the sample is a pretty good case for Jordan's prose as good, readable text, and a good example of why it took him several hundred pages per major plot point.

I'm tempted to get it, it would make reading the book faster AND help me keep up with my english listening skills (if you don't practice it all goes away).