D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Dungeonosophy]

It would be cheaper to not sell those legacy products. [...] At best you might get the product pulled.

If we push too much on Wotc for amends, or on creators to have cultural validation on new product, they will simply stop.
Stop using cultural reference.
So no more setting, no more guide, no more supplement, and no more offense.

These are small words. Because they play on the fear of "fandom" that our toys will be taken from us if we don't behave like nice wittle customers.

Do you honestly think that because I'm suggesting a path of amends for "red orcs" and "yellow orcs", that WotC will never publish settings, guides, or supplements which have "cultural reference"?

 

[Zardnaar]

What, are you a prophet? You're speaking pretty authoritatively for someone who's not a representative of Wizards of the Coast.

Or are you really just saying that you personally wish for no amends to be made?

I'm no prophet it's common sense.

"Dear WotC please hire a team to comb though every product ever and redo it".

Not sure if you're aware of how much work that actually entails.

They produce what 5 books a year? At its height TSR was cranking out 60 iirc.

Movie studios with vastly more amounts of money don't do that and it's cultural vandalism as well.

No prophecy there's to much material to cover for any reasonable sized team to do.

Heading into an edition cycle or 5.5 type.

It's no a reasonable expectation, the original authors are dead or long forgotten their work most likely.

At best they pull the material maybe an apology. They can't/won't wheel out the original authors.

 

[BookTenTiger]

If we push too much on Wotc for amends, or on creators to have cultural validation on new product, they will simply stop.
Stop using cultural reference.
So no more setting, no more guide, no more supplement, and no more offense.

When I look at modern day TV and cartoons, I see a lot more representation than there used to be. That comes from creators and producers being pushed by organizations to improve representation.

Furthermore, look at what Wizards of the Coast is actually doing. Their work is full of diverse skin tones, body types, and now even abilities. They are doing the hard work, because of people like @Dungeonosophy who use evidence-based approaches to guide progress.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

If we push too much on Wotc for amends, or on creators to have cultural validation on new product, they will simply stop.
Stop using cultural reference.
So no more setting, no more guide, no more supplement, and no more offense.

Umm, this "doomsaying" claim is completely unfounded. WotC has been pretty good so far at attempting to make amends, starting with their Diversity and Dragons statement early last year. They've also been hiring more sensitivity readers and cultural consultants recently. It seems like they are continuing to try and be as inclusive as possible, even with the PR controversy in the past couple of years.

So, no, this is complete nonsense.

 

[Zardnaar]

These are small words. Because they play on the fear of "fandom" that our toys will be taken from us if we don't behave like nice wittle customers.

Do you honestly think that because I'm suggesting a path of amends for "red orcs" and "yellow orcs", that WotC will never publish settings, guides, or supplements which have "cultural reference"?

Going forward sure. Pay attention to what I'm saying it's not reasonable/viable or possible to do what that specific poster asked.

 

[MGibster]

You've answered your own question here. The "why" is so that they don't publish similar products (and run into this issue again) in the future.

That doesn't make any sense. If your end goal is that they won't publish a similar product, well, mission accomplished, because whether or not they speak with someone else they're not going to publish something similar. So when you say the next step is to go talk to marginalized people about a product that's nearly 35 years old, what are you trying to accomplish? (A product most of them likely has no idea exists in the first place.) Or do you mean this is something they should do going forward?

 

[CleverNickName]

That doesn't make any sense. If your end goal is that they won't publish a similar product, well, mission accomplished, because whether or not they speak with someone else they're not going to publish something similar. So when you say the next step is to go talk to marginalized people about a product that's nearly 35 years old, what are you trying to accomplish? (A product most of them likely has no idea exists in the first place.) Or do you mean this is something they should do going forward?

Honestly? Truthfully?

Yes, I hope they do publish materials that are based on real-world history, mythologies, and legend. Because like I said earlier in another post upstream, there isn't anything wrong with doing so (as long as it is done with care and respect.) I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't do it; I'm suggesting they should do better.

I would love to see a rewrite of GAZ10 that was as respectfully and tastefully written as others in the series. They've demonstrated that they can do it; this isn't a reinvention of the wheel.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

"Dear WotC please hire a team to comb though every product ever and redo it".

Not sure if you're aware of how much work that actually entails.

Hi, I'm not happy with how you slipped in something I've never suggested. I never suggested in this thread, or in the preceding thread at the Mystara Piazza, that WotC "redo" the product. That's dishonest of you to attribute that to me. And then to argue against something you yourself invented. And then accuse me of "cultural vandalism" for something I never said.

It's no a reasonable expectation, the original authors are dead or long forgotten their work most likely.

At best they pull the material maybe an apology. They can't/won't wheel out the original authors.

Only a few weeks ago, I spoke with Bruce Heard, the author of GAZ10. I've talked with him and other TSR designers many times. And Bruce, despite the seriously passé and distasteful elements in that 1988 work, is actually a great guy. And definitely alive.

WotC wheeled out R.A. Salvatore to make a beautiful amendatory statement on the drow.

 

[dragoner]

Pretty sure WOTC is not going to stop making D&D anytime soon.

Per topic, my wife is half Apache from her Father, half Ukrainian from her Mother, and 100% Mexican from Anglo culture. Shortly after getting married, I pitched a game book that said "Americans hate Mexicans" simply because it was not a conversation I wanted to have, ever, not over a game; and it wasn't like I was going to play it any time soon. People can deal with these things how they want to, all other people want is a little respect, and it's the dignified way to act anyways, so there is the positive aspect there as well.

 

[MGibster]

Yes, I hope they do publish materials that are based on real-world history, mythologies, and legend. Because like I said earlier in another post upstream, there isn't anything wrong with doing so (as long as it is done with care and respect.) You're suggesting that they shouldn't do it, and I'm suggesting they should do better.

I think you have me confused with someone else as I never suggested such a thing.

I would love to see a rewrite of GAZ10 that was as respectfully and tastefully written as others in the series. They've demonstrated that they can do it; this isn't a reinvention of the wheel.

I mean, I've got no dog in this particular fight as I didn't even know this product existed until this thread. This ain't exactly Ravenloft, and I don't know if a lot of people are pining for a new version of it.