D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Voadam]

How is keeping it any different from the continued use of the names Washington Redskins and Cleveland Indians?

I would say that pulling past books about the Cleveland Indians (say a book about them in the world series in the 90s) or something like the movie Major League would involve different issues than the team's current name going forward.

 

[CleverNickName]

To summarize my thoughts and opinions:

• The Orcs of Thar is an offensive, problematic product that would never be green-lit today.
• It shouldn't have been green-lit even in the 1980s, but here we are.
• I don't mind the Legacy Content disclaimer; I think it is appropriate.
• The disclaimer is a notice to the reader, not an apology, and both are necessary.
• The best apology is changed behavior.
• Wizards of the Coast has demonstrated their commitment to changing that behavior.
• The issues outlined in this thread cannot be fixed easily, or quickly, or quietly. But they can be fixed.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The Romans were outstanding at one thing by the standards of the ancient world (and no, it wasn't war). They offered multiple relatively easy paths to full Roman citizenship - which meant that two generations after they'd conquered a region the middle classes in that region were proud to be Roman citizens or were aspiring to become Roman citizens and knew that it was a practical goal. In short they assimilated conquered peoples in a way almost no one has either before or since. And that's why Rome lasted so long as an empire. (Well, that and some pretty excellent social mobility up to and including someone who was taken captive and paraded in a triumph going on to have a triumph thrown in his own honour).

Keeping it brief so I don't go far off-topic - definitely that helped them, though the social mobility you describe is not actually that unusual in the ancient world (it's later periods it becomes unusual in), nor in practice did it work well at all times (you needed informal outside-the-system help to get beyond a certain point), but yes that was absolutely the carrot part of their carrot-stick approach to destroying cultures root and branch - abandon your culture wholesale to become a Roman citizen and reap the benefits! But fail to abandon it, and you'll be limited in how you can go. Also the "social mobility" was propped up by massive slavery which enabled it (that's a whole other discussion though).

 

[Zardnaar]

Keeping it brief so I don't go far off-topic - definitely that helped them, though the social mobility you describe is not actually that unusual in the ancient world (it's later periods it becomes unusual in), nor in practice did it work well at all times (you needed informal outside-the-system help to get beyond a certain point), but yes that was absolutely the carrot part of their carrot-stick approach to destroying cultures root and branch - abandon your culture wholesale to become a Roman citizen and reap the benefits! But fail to abandon it, and you'll be limited in how you can go. Also the "social mobility" was propped up by massive slavery which enabled it (that's a whole other discussion though).

I think you need to look at both positives and negatives if Rome or anywhere else.

Even the negatives of Rome were fairly universal in the ancient world.

Slavery pretty much existed everywhere for example along with nasty forms of execution.

Rome just documented it better at least for Europe. Pretty much all empires expanded on an ocean of blood.

 

[Faolyn]

Insulting to the individual in a ham fisted 80's satire way?

They're mocking Sitting Bull?

I kind of get the impression that they're not so much making fun of Sitting Bull as they are making fun of orcs by saying that of course they'd have stupid names that refer to bodily functions, and are using Sitting Bull as the way to do it. The end result is the same--it's totally racist--but the motivations are different.

I could be wrong, and they could very well be making fun of Sitting Bull's name because they thought it was funny. But I don't know.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Slavery pretty much existed everywhere for example along with nasty forms of execution.

Rome just documented it better at least for Europe.

Sorry but this is ahistorical nonsense. I'll keep as brief as I can.

You want to consider the positives and the negatives? Then you cannot argue that. I mean, it's just outright false anyway ("just better documented" because archaeology doesn't support that claim). I studied ancient history, note. Roman slavery was not the same as slavery throughout the ancient world. The scale of slavery, who got enslaved, what slaves were used for, the role in slaves in society, and the laws surrounding slavery were highly unusual with Rome. It's like, you say Roman roads and aqueducts were amazing and different those of other people? There's some truth in that, but equally, their slavery was not the same. Likewise their executions. They were not necessarily any more horrific - it is true everyone seems to have ridiculous execution methods reported (archaeology does not support most of them actually existing - though crucifixion sure did!), but Romans executed people on unheard-of scales, in some cases tens of thousands at once (take that Aztecs and your mass sacrifices!), and they executed people for reasons other cultures wouldn't consider (for example, when a slave-owner was killed by a slave he owned, all his slaves were executed - in one case this was 400 slaves - some of whom literally weren't even in the same city as the crime). I would advise that you stop trying to argue stuff you really don't know much about. If you really want to keep arguing it, DM me.

(Just as an aside it's pretty funny when Caesar is all like "OMG Druids put a handful of criminals in a wickerman and burned it! So barbaric!" when the Romans were happily nailing people to crosses left right and center. And there's actual archaeological evidence for the latter.)

 

[Ashtagon]

Regarding the "Sitting Drool" issue...

When making a fictional people or character based off a real world culture, it's important to avoid causing offence both to the actual culture group, and to any expats of that culture group. Japanese-Americans have different concerns from those of Japanese in Japan, which is why the reactions to the recent Ghost in the Shell remake were so different between Japanese-Americans and Japanese people in Japan.

GAZ10 creates an additional wrinkle, as the humanoids are consciously imitating game-world cultures that are based off real-world cultures. I'm re-reading my copy of GAZ10, and I haven't seen anything (yet) to suggest this imitation is done either as a way of gaining that human culture's power or as a way of mocking or insulting that human culture. But even if the in-world intent is to mock the in-world human culture they are imitating, it is important that the game product writer(s) do not coincidentally mock or insult the real-world culture that inspired the game-world culture that the humanoids are mocking.

Unfortunately, I don't think that character name works well at all. Even if we suppose the humanoids think "Sitting Drool" is a name appropriate for an individual who is to be honoured among their ranks (debatable, but I'm not an expert on orc society), it is plainly insulting to the real-world culture that inspired the game-world culture these orcs are supposed to be imitating.

 

[Helldritch]

Not sure never got past chapter 1. Tried reading it a few times and used it as a source at uni.

Read it for a college paper and read it not once but five times. I've had to take a shower, drink soap and take a severe mental trauma cure session to get rid of these words but only hypnosis could erase those memories... But I read that crap. Will never do that again. And still, I believe it is good that people can read it and see it for what a piece of sh** it is.

 

[The Glen]

I kind of get the impression that they're not so much making fun of Sitting Bull as they are making fun of orcs by saying that of course they'd have stupid names that refer to bodily functions, and are using Sitting Bull as the way to do it. The end result is the same--it's totally racist--but the motivations are different.

I could be wrong, and they could very well be making fun of Sitting Bull's name because they thought it was funny. But I don't know.

I can answer that. 87-89 was TSR's "silly phase". Immediately after Gary's ouster management did a tonal shift and brought out a lot of products that were lighter in nature and often comedic. Castle Greyhawk, IM3 Best of Intentions, Spelljammer and Orcs of Thar all fit into this category plus a few more I'm not remembering. Jim Holloway was the artist for most of these products. Humor was targeted towards younger audience but customer base wasn't impressed. Silly phase ended quickly.

Orcs of Thar was an outlier for Mystara fans. Most of it wasn't playable with other books. It gave the humanoids a distinct background and introduced a lot of concepts that shaped the setting like afterlife being about reincarnation or humanoids being created by Immortals to bring about the Entropic end of Mystara, but most of the stuff was just there to get a laugh. It's telling that the other gazetteer that was light hearted was Ierendi and it relying on 80s pop culture rather than bodily fluid jokes. The books that came before or after Thar were Minrothad and Darokin, which were free of silliness.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Because football teams are still actively producing new games and new merchandise, while Gaz10 can languish on its virtual shelf not doing anything.

Except making money and making sure the 'joke' spreads.