D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Snarf Zagyg]

That's a good reply and I can totally see your position.

To me, continued support through the sales of the Mystara PDFs puts it into a middle zone. It's not current in the sense that a setting book has been put out for it in 5e, but it's not exactly relegated to the past, either.

Mystara is also mentioned a few times as a setting in the 5e PHB and 5e DMG. People who want to know more are going to have to look to these past books to find out about the setting and that will lead them to these PDFs.

I certainly don't want to see GAZ 10 banned or "book burned," but I think continued sales should be ended.

Okay, so I guess I will have to explain my theory a little more. There is a distinction between a de jure and a de facto ban. A de jure ban would be, for example, the City of Boston as a matter of law refusing to allow sales of the book, Naked Lunch. A de facto ban would be, for example, people publicly pressuring a company to stop producing a disfavored book.

Now, in both cases it is unlikely to be an actual and total ban. Almost every de jure ban is able to be circumvented- you can just travel outside of Boston in the example I provided. It's the same with a de facto ban- just find a library that already has the product! Heck, technically China isn't censoring or banning anything; it's just private corporations making decisions to not offend the Chinese people with our crazy ideas of democracy and rights for the people in Hong Kong. It's just de facto.

In fact, we often hear these arguments. For example, when certain groups are trying to ban Melissa (formerly George) from yet another library because they don't want their children being exposed to the idea that there are transgender individuals out there, you will often hear them say things similar to, "Well, you can always buy it. Or find it somewhere else. We're not banning it, we just don't want to make it available here."

In today's society, businesses and capitalism are the true driving forces- combine that with the idea of rights-holders in IP, and you can easily see how pressuring rights-holders not to produce (or make available) a work is one of the most effective de facto bans that can exist. Because it's essentially unaccountable- governments and boards might make the wrong decision, but they are accountable to the public and to the law (First Amendment issues). But if you really want to succeed in squelching things you disagree with, you just make the companies make it disappear.

I really think that would be unfortunate. Not because the OP's analysis was wrong (it wasn't). But because I think we should always error on the side of "disclose, and allow people to make their decisions." To remove a book like GAZ10 may not matter much- after all, few people play BECMI, fewer still run it in Mystara, and ever fewer would want that book. But I think that days, months, and years from now there will be people who want to get their own, original copy for all sorts of reasons... even if it is to examine the ways in which early RPGs reflected the casual racism of the culture around them.

IMO, etc. Others might feel differently, but I feel strongly about sunlight being the best disinfectant.

 

[Maxperson]

Are most people who aren't already into BECMI even aware it exists?

The steps guiding new players there are built in. Mystara is mentioned as a setting twice(that I know of) in both the 5e PHB and 5e DMG. Someone wanting to know more about the setting will Google Mystara and likely look at the Wiki, which will lead them to the Gazetteers if they want to run games in that setting. I doubt the numbers will be all that high, but it's not limited to older players.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Football is advertised all over the place and is actively promoted. Is anyone actually trying to promote Gaz10? Are most people who aren't already into BECMI even aware it exists? This thread has probably done more to advertise it than anything WotC or probably even TSR ever did.

I certainly had never heard about it until this thread. Admittedly, I had bailed out of D&D during that period, but the fact it is or isn't in print wouldn't have done anything about my knowledge regarding it.

 

[Mirtek]

So yeah, there very well could be a DRAGON+ amends article about the problematic aspects of the Wall of the Faithless and of the Athar Faction. And it would be perpetually linked to all the product pages which feature the Wall and the Athar. And there'd be a Humanist charity which is supported by those products.

And after that we get an amends on behalf of atheist groups that is apologizing for the amends about the Athar Faction on behalf of the religios groups

It's exceptionally easy to find these comics still in print across Europe.

Note however that the european neighbours are getting the same mocking threatment in Asterix. All europeans are ridiculed from the french POV with the stereotypes and mockeries they have for the rest of europe.

Also the whole tribe is a mockery themselves to begin with.

 

[Mirtek]

I literally have no idea, have never read any of his books or, for that matter, any D&D novels outside of 2-3 Ravenloft novels, nor do I know anything about him as a person. Maybe Salvatore has been thinking about this for a long time and waiting for an opportunity to correct it. Maybe the idea never occurred to him until he was approached to write a new book and he suddenly realized "hey, this isn't cool." Maybe it was something else.

IMHO it's a marketing stunt to generate goodwill toward his new books. I have trouble taken this serious from the guy that always hated the extended drow pantheon and is one of the reason that Eilistraee and her good drow, that existed for decades already, have been downplayed and ignored.

Can't make Drizzt less special by actually mentioning the many good drow. Well, except when it's the brand new good drow that he just invented ....

 

[Yaarel]

In any case, I want the City of Blackmoor by Arneson for the 50-year anniversary, as a separate regional setting. So that DMs can plug it into any other world setting, whether homebrew, Greyhawk, Mystara, Eberron, Forgotten Realms, a Magic The Gathering world, or wherever.

Similarly, I want the City of Greyhawk by Gygax as a regional setting for the anniversary.

 

[Yaarel]

Re GAZ10.

For the moment, it seems that link from the product page of Mystara GAZ10 to a Dragon+ article discussing the difficulties, is more beneficial and raises more awareness about certain legacy content.



The situation might change if a 5e Mystara setting came out officially, while many groups tried to fill in the gaps using the older problematic legacy content to fill in the gaps.



I am unsure how a 5e Mystara setting is possible. It needs to be rewritten from scratch, with the cultural sensitivities at its foundation. There would be extensive consultation with EACH culture. A formidable endeavor.

Probably it would be published piecemeal, region by region, starting small and expanding outward to other regions. Yet this approach would encourage DMs to purchase the problematic legacy gazettes to fill in the gaps.

 

[Cadence]

Absolutely untrue and I'd appreciate you not trying to ascribe something untrue to me.

Not continuing the production of a thing is not banning it.

Again, I ask: do you think that the fact that they don't print DvDs of the Cosby Show constitutes banning it?

I'm thinking that nothing would ensure the spread of GAZ 10 online like making it unavailable for regular purchase. Wouldn't it make it become a thing among a "certain segment of gamers". It would certainly pop up as a .pdf file in lots of places. And WotC seems to have little to no ability to make sure bootleg .pdfs aren't widely available.

On the other hand I can certainly see WotC not wanting it to be up for sale with their name on it.

Does much of the book banning argument go away if they have a program making out of print works available to scholarly research or the like?

 

[cowpie]

And let’s not bury our heads in the sand here and pretend like you’re not advocating a de facto ban. From banned books week: Banned Books Week was launched in 1982 in response to a sudden surge in the number of challenges to books in schools, bookstores and libraries. I.e. threads like this are why the annual celebration exists.

WOTC is banning selected language from the books, which is a partial ban. By expunging parts of the book, they can censor ideas and change the original meaning of the book. Plus, it's a stealth ban--you gradually chip pieces of the material away, so it's less noticeable, and then you chip another piece, and another piece, until you've effectively banned the book. By not banning the entire book, it can be make to look like it's not a banning at first glance, which also allows the censors to deny that they're banning by using a Motte and Bailey strategy.

For example, WOTC is banning all references to orcs being evil, and yuan-ti being cannibals but ignoring stereotyping for all the other humanoids (as if their descriptions are any different). In a few months, you edit hobgoblins. Then you justify each follow up by saying "well nobody minded orcs and hobgoblins, so why not goblins". "Nobody minded censoring cannibalism with the yuan-ti, so you shouldn't have any problem with censoring cannibalism with Gnolls." Wash, rinse, repeat.

What I find the most disturbing, is that there seems to be no realization that if you endorse censorship, then you open yourself to future censorship by people who disagree with you. Better to not censor at all, than to erode an inalienable right that applies to all.

 

[Faolyn]

For example, WOTC is banning all references to orcs being evil, and yuan-ti being cannibals but ignoring stereotyping for all the other humanoids (as if their descriptions are any different). In a few months, you edit hobgoblins. Then you justify each follow up by saying "well nobody minded orcs and hobgoblins, so why not goblins". "Nobody minded censoring cannibalism with the yuan-ti, so you shouldn't have any problem with censoring cannibalism with Gnolls." Wash, rinse, repeat.

Sigh. No, they're not. They're not banning references to orcs being evil. But since I've already explained this to you, I'm just going ask this: why is it so important for you that all orcs are evil, and why do you consider it to be "censorship" when WotC chooses to write orcs as not always evil?