D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Mirtek]

"If you are playing 4e D&D, then you are not playing a real RPG."

"If you are playing 4e D&D, then you are not playing true D&D."

It most definitely gatekeeping what constitutes who is or isn't playing D&D or an RPG.


Is 4e D&D actually D&D? For some edition warriors, the answer was "no." 4e was not regarded as a valid expression or truth about being a genuine form of D&D play.

And the counter claim that 4e is the new hot ### and better than anything before it is not?

The traditions and sacred cows where not just done away it, their slaughter was celebrated and anyone not liking it was told at length how bad they were and how great 4e is for finally getting rid of them.

The "Gatekeeping" around 4e really goes both ways.

 

[Aldarc]

I want D&D 5e to be more like pathfinder and use a three action economy - are they gatekeeping me out of D&D? or are these just different products with different audiences?

Why would my demands be any more or less valid than anyone else's demands?

Can you really not recognize the difference between someone saying that "4e isn't really D&D" and "I think that D&D should implement a three action economy"?

First, I didn't make either other these arguments. But second I just see this as a matter of opinion. If someone doesn't think a particular edition of the game fits their understanding of an RPG, naturally anyone playing it, in their view isn't playing an RPG. Like I said, I think that isn't a good argument. I think it isn't useful. I don't think it is keeping people out of the hobby. I think we have a lot of playstyle discussions that are bad, that revolve around controlling the meaning of terms so our preferred style is accepted as the good, the correct, the official one. I don't like those arguments, but I don't see them as a form of gate keeping (which again for me would need to rise to the level of actually saying people shouldn't be playing the game). Saying I don't think you are really playing the game you think, is insulting, and it is a bad faith argument. But I would not label it gatekeeping because I think then it diminishes the utility of the term (and becomes a loud button people can invoke in debates about editions).

There are a cadre of people here and elsewhere who seem to imagine that opinions are unassailable and immune to pushback on account of being opinions. However, opinions have been used to cause harm and gatekeep. No one likes the idea that they were somehow complicit in gatekeeping.

"Girls shouldn't play D&D" is both an opinion and gatekeeping. The idea that "4e isn't D&D" or is "too much like a video game and not D&D" are both opinions and were most definitely weaponized as part of gatekeeping. If you can't recognize that in good faith or refuse to in bad faith, then there is little hope for this conversation going forward.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Yes, as a matter of fact. I had friends who were pushed away from the hobby because of the 4e edition wars and some who refused to play while reiterating 4e edition war talking points in sheer ignorance of the actual rules of the edition.

But the latter is just people saying they don't want to play a particular game. I mean if I start running Cthulhu and one or two of my players say I won't be joining if we play that, they aren't doing anything wrong. Even if their understanding of Cthulhu is incorrect, and they say things about the game I know not to be true, it is ultimately up to them what game they are willing to play with us. Now obviously if someone in your group singled out a person because they liked 4E and told them they weren't welcome, that is terrible behavior. Personally I didn't encounter anything like that. But I did see two groups I played with disintegrate or fragment over 4Th edition (no one was angry at anyone, but there were two players who wouldn't' play 4th after they tried it for a month----which I think is fair. Personally I strongly liked 4E but I was wiling to play at first. But I couldn't get enthusiastic for playing it over the long haul and started playing other games. I ended up mostly playing with the guy who loved 4E (and we started a game company together). I see 4E as a perfectly valid preference. I understand why some people liked it. But I don't think people should have to walk around on eggshells about their opinion of an edition that came out over ten years ago.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Attacking new popular things and blaming them for the 'wrongs' in the game is a form of gatekeeping.

What if you don't like those new popular things? Are you not allowed to criticize something popular without being accused of "gatekeeping"?

 

[Aldarc]

And the counter claim that 4e is the new hot ### and better than anything before it is not?

The traditions and sacred cows where not just done away it, their slaughter was celebrated and anyone not liking it was told at length how bad they were and how great 4e is for finally getting rid of them.

The "Gatekeeping" around 4e really goes both ways.

Let's not fall into the all too common trap of thinking that all sides were equally toxic.

 

[Filthy Lucre]

Can you really not recognize the difference between someone saying that "4e isn't really D&D" and "I think that D&D should implement a three action economy"?

I mean, if I wanted to make your argument, I could, but right now I don't, so, no, I don't see a difference between these.

Except maybe that the latter is more concrete and actionable whereas the former is vague, toothless, personal opinion.

I don't mean this as an insult or to be rude, but it seems like to you gate keeping is just "mean opinions".

 

[Bedrockgames]

"Girls shouldn't play D&D" is both an opinion and gatekeeping. The idea that "4e isn't D&D" or is "too much like a video game and not D&D" are both opinions and were most definitely weaponized as part of gatekeeping. If you can't recognize that in good faith or refuse to in bad faith, then there is little hope for this conversation going forward.

The crucial part of "girls shouldn't play D&D" is that it is pushing people away from the hobby and can therefore be described as gate keeping. That it is also an opinion is pretty irrelevant. My point is expanding the meaning of gatekeeping to include opinions you dislike or disagree with, but don't rise to that level, in my opinion that isn't very healthy for a discussion about media. People should be able to say when they think an RPG crosses a line into being another type of game or not an RPG. That isn't keeping people from the hobby. Can it be used to push people out? I suppose. But I find that argument "this can be weaponized to" very weak. Assuming that I am failing to recognize something you think is obvious, or worse, making a bad faith decision to ignore the weight of argument, I don't know, I think that isn't helpful here. All I can say is people can have honest disagreements about this stuff without it being nefarious or bad faith.

 

[Mirtek]

Let's not fall into the all too common trap of thinking that all sides were equally toxic.

In this case both were. I remember the flame wars here on Enworld and other boards all too well. The crowd celebrating the sacred cows being turned into hamburgers were no better than the crowd defending those cows. No side was pretty during this time.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Attacking new popular things and blaming them for the 'wrongs' in the game is a form of gatekeeping.

When you get old, you often don't like the new popular thing. This is as old as art itself. My parents thought my music was noise. They weren't gatekeeping, they just had different tastes and expectations when it came to music. I don't get marvel movies. I can't enjoy them. A lot of people seem to like them though. I find myself in agreement with Martin Scorsese that they feel like rides. Doesn't mean other people are wrong for enjoying them. Just watching the stuff I watched, by the time I get to those later Michael Bay movies and Marvel films, I feel like I am strapped in for a ride, and not watching a film: because I have outdated and old tastes and expectations around movies. It is the same with games. People often react negatively to newer stuff when they get older.

Careful, you wouldn't want to Gatekeeping the old timers out of the hobby would you

 

[Bedrockgames]

In this case both were. I remember the flame wars here on Enworld and other boards all too well. The crowd celebrating the sacred cows being turned into hamburgers were no better than the crowd defending those cows. No side was pretty during this time.

My impression too. Everyone got pretty mean when those discussions crescendoed. I think people tended to ignore the meanness on their own side, and be blind to their own meanness as well. But it was definitely going all around.