D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Vaalingrade]

Can we just step back, look at the images from the module this thread is about, and then keep that in context with the whole 'too many things are being called racist' argument?

 

[Filthy Lucre]

1) Whether you can do something about it depens on a whole lot of variables, largely out of your immediate control. As discussed elsewhere on these boards, there are many problems with bigotry in the hobby that have been complained about for decades, but are only now starting to be addressed. How far would we have progressed as a hobby if those early, ineffectual complaints had never been uttered?

2) Stoicism =/= being unaffected. Suffering silently =/= righteous or strength.

3) At its core, “I’m offended” is merely a communication that you have been hurt, just like “ow!” To say it’s meaningless is, thus, dising at worst. But Fry‘s intellect isn’t to be trifled with. But I guarantee you even he makes a distinction between being offended and the mere declarative utterance thereof.

To me, offense without action is meaningless. It is not the offense in and of itself, it's the expectation that someone else needs to do something about your having been offended, rather than you needing to do something about that which offended you.

 

[Aldarc]

if your solution to the problem isn’t making it better but worse, which is what I think it is doing, and if your diagnosis of the problem is in error….

If your solution to a problem amounts to doing nothing about it, then you are part of the problem.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Can we just step back, look at the images from the module this thread is about, and then keep that in context with the whole 'too many things are being called racist' argument?

I wasn't saying that about these images. I haven't read the books so I am not comfortable weighing in without knowing the full context (I just wasn't that into this series). But the depiction definitely seem stereotypical caricatures on first glance to me. However I am also not surprised to find something like that in a product that is decades old.

I was talking more about seeing colonialist themes in dungeon crawls, and seeing racism in orcs being evil monsters. I think when you have a lens that is always on the lookout for this stuff, you will find it. But I think if you are really interested in fixing the problems of racism in society, discerning when it is actually an issue versus not is important. And I base that on my own experience. I know I have been in situations where I overreacted and thought racism was afoot when it wasn't (and my overreaction not only compete failed to understand the truth of what was happening, but made things much much worse).

 

[Bedrockgames]

If your solution to a problem amounts to doing nothing about it, then you are part of the problem.

We have some fundamental disagreements and probably not enough space in a thread to engage this fully on a tangent. I will just say I think discernment is key. And I think determining whether something is actually a problem, if it is the problem you think it is, and to what extent it is a problem, all matter in addressing some of the core concerns here. And I think solutions that aggravate the problem, or create new ones, are definitely not worthy of being pursued.

 

[Umbran]

To me, offense without action is meaningless. It is not the offense in and of itself, it's the expectation that someone else needs to do something about your having been offended, rather than you needing to do something about that which offended you.

This sounds like an abdication of responsibility for your own actions. By this logic, it is not your responsibility to fix what you have done wrong - the person you have wronged must provide the correction, or find a way to apply force to you until you act, as you have no duty to do it otherwise.

 

[Filthy Lucre]

This sounds like an abdication of responsibility for your own actions. By this logic, it is not your responsibility to fix what you have done wrong - the person you have wronged must provide the correction, or find a way to apply force to you until you act, as you have no duty to do it otherwise.

It is 100% an abdication of responsibility. While "might makes right" might not be morally true, in a practical sense, the only thing that really matters is what you can control/enforce/effectuate.

Probably not the place for this, but a concise example of where I think someone is making a practical mistake is this:

Suppose you're talking with someone who doesn't just disagree with you, but forcefully so. Let's say that they disagree so greatly that they favor policies/laws/D&D editions that will cause you harm. Let us also say that their justifications/reasons are wrong/false just as a matter of fact to us discussing it and the "you" in question.

Saying "It's not my job to educate you on why you are harming me" accomplishes nothing because your interlocutor doesn't care - they do not believe they are wrong, and therefor have no reason to look into the matter further, (setting aside the virtue of introspection). It may not be "fair" for the aggrieved to have to defend themselves even when they are right, but there mere charge of "unfairness" will not protect them.

 

[Umbran]

It is 100% an abdication of responsibility. While "might makes right" might not be morally true, in a practical sense, the only thing that really matters is what you can control/enforce/effectuate.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why we cannot have nice things.

 

[Filthy Lucre]

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why we cannot have nice things.

If I could control the universe, it wouldn't be so; Alas, I do not have the power to change it - it is not my opinion but a fact of nature.

Just because I think something is true doesn't mean that I think it's "good" or "right".

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

See, that's an opinion presented as fact.

How can you objetively meassure the 4e Abyss and Orcus being a corrupted primordial as to being better than the legacy D&D Abyss and Orcus being an evil mortal soul that clawed his way up to demonprince?

It's like saying that this strawberry icecream is objectively better than the previous chocolate chunk ice cream.

A recurrent issue on the internet is that people don’t understand the difference between objective and subjective.

Objective isn’t just an extreme intensifier for an opinion.

If something cannot be measured against an outside referent, you can’t use objective.

Objective- Today is hotter than yesterday. (You can measure the temperature using an outside referent- such as Kelvin, and compare).

Subjective- A Tesla is an OBJeCTIVELY better car than a Model T. (Better at what? For whom? Why? Does it have a better ICE? Is it a better car for the Ford museum? Etc )

…and the corollary to this is that many people do not enjoy it when you point out that these things are subjective. Unfortunately.