D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[pemerton]

To be honest I can never make up my mind whether the ubiquitiousness of Lovecraft is really due to inherent qualities of the writing, or whether it's just a kind of weird cultural obsession where everyone convinces themselves they love the Cthulhu mythos and find it scary because they think everyone else does.

I personally don't find Lovecraft's stories very scary, and find it hard to imagine that anyone else would. But I'm not sure it's all about the meme. There are some interesting ideas in his work. But I find the actual writing to mostly be an incredible slog.

 

[pemerton]

@Mercurius

I don't think we need to know JRRT's biography to work out that he's an anti-industrial Romantic. The work - especially LotR - reveals that pretty clearly!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Just to clarify, was Lovecraft the creator of the Cosmic Horror genre, or just the most popularly known author of it?

AFAIK, the creator/co-creator. But I definitely could be wrong on that.

 

[Zardnaar]

AFAIK, the creator/co-creator. But I definitely could be wrong on that.

I didn't even know he existed until I ran into "that 90's guy" with a Call of Cthulhu addiction. Tried reading one of his books but yeah.

Some genres I just can't do horror is one.

Could never get into Tolkein with shrugs.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

To be honest I can never make up my mind whether the ubiquitiousness of Lovecraft is really due to inherent qualities of the writing, or whether it's just a kind of weird cultural obsession where everyone convinces themselves they love the Cthulhu mythos and find it scary because they think everyone else does.

Edit: Or in other words, the Lovecraft that features in geek culture these days is more meme than man.

I'm not a fan of Lovecraft and his work has always been rather impenetrable to me. I was introduced to his writings after playing the RPG - which was, and remains, enormous fun - and I think that probably also shaped my understanding. But I don't find him remotely "scary."

It's not that I find the overly-Baroque language a problem in itself - I have no issues with, say, C.A. Smith or Mervyn Peake. And it's not that I have issues with the pacing, per se - M.R. James is very much a slow burn and he can be absolutely terrifying (with unparalleled command of the language, IMO). I think rather that - being British - I lacked (and still lack?) the cultural touchstones necessary to contextualize Lovecraft, and in a sense feel unqualified to fully grasp him. I read (read: slogged through) him in my 'teens, and when I tried again in my 30s I felt even more underwhelmed than I previously remembered. The fact that he was a huge influence on Stephen King (by King's own admission) also leaves me cold, as I'm not a fan of his work either - with a few notable exceptions.

So I suppose my overall thoughts with regard to Lovecraft are ... Meh... (body of writings) and Ew! (political views).

 

[Mirtek]

I wonder sometimes if 4e had been mechanically like 5e but kept the 4e lore changes would it have been more or less successful than the 4e we got. It's an interesting (if unrelated) thought experiment.

I personaly believe the opposite: If it had kept the old lore with it's new mechanics it would have gone much better

 

[Mirtek]

I'm lost.
...why are we talking about warlords and 4th Edition?

Yes, we should really concentrate on getting back to the original topic of which M&M's are the best. That's the real topic, isn't it?

 

[Aldarc]

It also still leaves things wide open for Paizo and Pathfinder. Instead of 4E being called "The MMO version of D&D" or "A wargame pretending to be D&D" or the like, you'd likely have got "D&D got dumbed down so they could make it into an MMO!" (things like Warlocks would be held up as evidence of this) or "Baby's First D&D" or the like, because realistically, going from 3.5E's extreme range of options, and fiddly, complex mechanics involving dozens of types of bonuses and them stacking or not, hundreds of feats, and so on, to "Advantage/Disadvantage" and like a dozen feats, with an audience already primed to hate the game by the three things I listed above, it would not look good.

Would it have done better than actual 4E? I don't really think so. Maybe a little but not a lot. Pathfinder would still have succeeded in capturing a large audience share. I think rather, the insults about it would be a little different, the distaste would be that it was a "simplified game for video game people", rather than "a wargame masquerading as an RPG".

Also, keep in mind that one reason why Paizo turned to Pathfinder was because WotC (in another brilliant decision) decided to turn off the water for Paizo's funds: i.e., Dungeon and Dragon Magazine.

If WotC had kept the OGL for 4e and Dungeon/Dragon Magazine for Paizo, there likely would not be a Pathfinder. A 3e retro-clone by some other publisher? Yes. But nothing to the same quality, level, or reputation as Paizo had with 3e and Pathfinder.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I guess I'm just still a little surprised by how harsh Kraghammer in particular sounded in the original book. It read more like a description that would be given of a duergar city. Though, maybe that was the point?

I think that was part of the point, yeah.

Given the number and quality of artists inspired by his works, I'd have to say it is Important Work in spec fiction and especially horror. His personal views (no matter how reprehensible) don't change that.

See below

That's why we talk about it but doesn't explain the vitriol. It doesn't explain the need to paint Lovecraft's particular racism as much worse than his contemporaries nor does it explain why some want to see his him no longer named as an influence.

Also see below. Good summary.

He's pretty much the poster child for the fundamental problem; he's very influential, many people found (and still do) find his work compelling, and a lot of it is stuffed full of Unfortunate Implications at best (you can argue almost all his horror is based around fear of the Other), and outright racism and xenophobia in front of God and everybody at worst. It also, at its best, evokes the sense Things Beyond Our Ken better than virtually anyone else has managed. So on one hand, its understandable that a lot of people would like to just forget him, some others are in denial about his more awful traits, and yet a third group would dearly like to untangle one from the other.

That’s a great summary, but it does miss a thing, I think. His influence means that his legacy matters, and thus has to be challenged and put into context just the same as if he were politically or socially important.

 

[Faolyn]

To be honest I can never make up my mind whether the ubiquitiousness of Lovecraft is really due to inherent qualities of the writing, or whether it's just a kind of weird cultural obsession where everyone convinces themselves they love the Cthulhu mythos and find it scary because they think everyone else does.

Edit: Or in other words, the Lovecraft that features in geek culture these days is more meme than man.

The concepts are great and genuinely scary, and has tons of potential. The writing is just OK.