D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Crimson Longinus]

If something in the D&D back catalogue is so offensive, that a mere disclaimer won't cut it, then they should just remove those products from sale*. Though frankly what that would mostly do is to obfuscate the amount of questionable BS the old products had, and make dissection like in the OP harder.

(*And no, the same logic won't apply to seminal literature like Lovecraft's works.)

 

[Filthy Lucre]

The half-dozen reports per day the thread creates speaks to how maybe it ain't all that polite.

After 90 pages, if nobody's moving, and the thread's still generating lots of reports, we do start thinking it may be an attractive nuisance. Thus the question.

Imagine unironically flagging or reporting a post. SMH.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I am apparently quite indecisive.

There is nothing wrong with that- in fact, it's quite laudable. It's not an easy issue. I think that the OP's analysis is accurate regarding the actual problems. I might slightly quibble with a very limited number of points the OP makes (for example, some of the 'joke-y' names weren't racist slurs, so much as they were a stylistic choice in RPGs at that time used for humous purposes, seen in Paranoia and other "humorous" games, and used extensively throughout the also-terrible, albeit far less racist, Castle Greyhawk that was released at the same time), but I think the overall points are absolutely correct.

But I think we, as a society, are struggling with what to do with past/historical works ... and in a number of ways. And the issues of past media (books, paintings, TV shows, movies, etc.) present very different issues than do present media, or ongoing issues (such as chants at baseball games, or statues).

What do we do if the the problem is the author, but not the content? For example, the majority of Michael Jackson songs (or Jackson 5), or Roman Polanski movies, or the H.P. Lovecraft stories without explicit racism? What do we do if the work itself reflects problematic elements but there is no indication that the author was the problem - such as John Hughes Movies, or Ravenloft, or OA, or GAZ10? Do we draw dividing lines between works that are problematic but are considered historically significant, like Gone with the Wind and Birth of the Nation ... or, in this example, are we more sensitive to the rule books and hardcovers than the supplements (and thus give Deities and Demigods a pass which contains a section of American Indian religion) but look more searchingly at GAZ10?

These aren't easy questions with right answers- and for that reason, I abstain for answering them for others. My view, and this is mine only, is that I encourage people like the OP to ask the questions and provide the analysis, and let people choose to engage at the level they want. But I do not think that these questions are easy- which is why I default to a principle, as opposed to an ad hoc and case-by-case analysis.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Raise your hand if you've actually changed your position on these matters in a substantial way within the past... 20 pages or so.

I don't think I changed any positions significantly but I sure learned some things and came to understand some ideas better in this thread, and I think in the last 20 pages. I mean, discussion isn't just about changing positions on the spot is it? For me what often happens is I learn some stuff, and I think about it, and maybe like a month later I resynthesize my opinions and maybe they've changed or shifted. Sometimes something is so surprising and novel and/or well argued you do have to change on the spot but I think it's rare personally.

That said I totally appreciate that threads like these are a handful to manage and probably need to be shut down eventually.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

That said I totally appreciate that threads like these are a handful to manage and probably need to be shut down eventually.

It's a tribute to both the moderators and (most of) the commenters that the thread has not been shut down already.

 

[Filthy Lucre]

I think the disagreements in this thread can be boiled down thusly:

Some people believe predominantly in a positive moral duty, (You ought to do this. We ought to reduce racism)
Some people believe predominantly in a negative moral duty, (you ought not to do this. We ought not to be racist)

But I don't think anyone here has argued that racism is good. HPL was a great author in spite of his staggering racism, not because of it.

BUT ALSO... You could reach Clark Ashton Smith - another great but lesser known author of short story format weird fiction. His work "The Devotee of Evil" clearly inspired lore/aesthetic elements of "The Lost Temple of Tharizdune".

 

[Voadam]

edit: oops posted in wrong thread.

 

[Umbran]

Imagine unironically flagging or reporting a post. SMH.

Mod Note:
Look, dude, that's the way we work around here. If you don't like it, you can take your posts elsewhere.

 

[Filthy Lucre]

Mod Note:
Look, dude, that's the way we work around here. If you don't like it, you can take your posts elsewhere.

I just can't imagine people caring that much.

 

[Umbran]

I just can't imagine people caring that much.

Mod Note:
I must now refer you to the rules - they are linked at the bottom of every page. Specifically, please don't reply to posts in "mod voice" colored text - they are not an invitation to public discussion. And this thread isn't really the place to discuss your personal limitations.