D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Hussar]

I guess the bigger question is, what is lost if we remove the "intrinsically evil" part?

Say we totally scrap alignment. Get rid of it entirely. Would people then start using mind flayers as inn keepers? Is that the worry?

I guess I just don't really see the problem with saying that any mortal race (as in stuff that isn't extra planar in nature - basically anything with a life cycle of some sort) is not intrinsically evil.

 

[Khelon Testudo]

I don't think Illithids use of slavery is a sticking point. If they think we're as animals compared to them, then what we call 'slavery' is just animal husbandry, or agriculture.

 

[Mordhau]

I guess the bigger question is, what is lost if we remove the "intrinsically evil" part?

Say we totally scrap alignment. Get rid of it entirely. Would people then start using mind flayers as inn keepers? Is that the worry?

I guess I just don't really see the problem with saying that any mortal race (as in stuff that isn't extra planar in nature - basically anything with a life cycle of some sort) is not intrinsically evil.

I don't think it matters what we label them. Alignment has always been stupid. But the point of them is that they're inherently monstrous in what they do. They eat brains.

You can say that's not evil from their perspective; it's just like humans eating pigs. In some ways they work better if we remove the objective cosmological labels, because a lot of the horror comes from the pure indifference they have towards the values we place upon ourselves. (Moral relativism is in a way, a horrific concept in itself!)

We can have the Pratchett style Mind Flayer if we like, who works a shift a down at the local bar and who no longer eats people's brains, thanks to a special artifical brain that his gnome buddy has rigged up out back that can be grown from a kind of fungus and gives him equal sustenance. You can even have a group of Illithids that meet up once a week for a meeting about their addiction and count how many days it is since they last devoured a brain.

But the key move here is not really political. It's from the horrific to the comic. (And the latter only really works because it's clearly a subversion)

In a way the comic move is the more progressive, because it in a way literalises the idea of Mind Flayers as just another type of person, and shows tolerance and a broader "humanity". The horror aspect doesn't really have a progessive message. But it doesn't need to. Horror explores our darker tendencies.

 

[Hussar]

I'm sorry. I really haven't followed the mind flayer issue at all. But, @Mordhau, I can say that I agree with everything you just said.

So, can someone explain what the actual issue is?

 

[Khelon Testudo]

The question is: If Mind Flayers must eat sapient creatures' brains to survive, does that make them Evil?

 

[Hussar]

The question is: If Mind Flayers must eat sapient creatures' brains to survive, does that make them Evil?

If it was based solely on that criteria? That in order to live, it must eat a sentient brain, would it be evil? Probably not. But, frankly, the diet of a mind flayer is hardly the sole reason why they are considered evil. The whole wholesale destruction of other species, genocide, complete lack of empathy, and various other goodies probably is more than enough. Diet is just the icing on the cake.

 

[Deset Gled]

The question is: If Mind Flayers must eat sapient creatures' brains to survive, does that make them Evil?

... and also, Native Americans and Mongolians were there.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

In Spelljammer, there were "oortlings," small humanoids with enormous brains that had been magically gengineered with limited intelligence that were used as a food source. Humanoid cows, effectively. It may be feasible to have non-Spelljamming mind flayers breed them.

IIRC the oortlings had the potential to be intelligent but were also bred to be constantly fearful and incapable of resisting.

The Underdark book released during 4E didn't mention oortlings, but it did namedrop three humanoid races the ancient illithid empire drove to extinction before developing more sustainable methods of farming humanoids for food or host purposes.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I guess the bigger question is, what is lost if we remove the "intrinsically evil" part?

Say we totally scrap alignment. Get rid of it entirely. Would people then start using mind flayers as inn keepers? Is that the worry?

I guess I just don't really see the problem with saying that any mortal race (as in stuff that isn't extra planar in nature - basically anything with a life cycle of some sort) is not intrinsically evil.

That's my question too.

What is the value of calling the brain-eating monsters evil?

Their very existence is antagonistic to our own. Where humans and illithids meet, there WILL be conflict.

What is the point of adding the artificial conflict of Good vs Evil when you already have predator and prey?

 

[Faolyn]

Like we know that pigs are intelligent, just pathetic compared to us?

Ish. Some humans value pig intelligence. I doubt any mind flayers do.