D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Remathilis]

Or you take the latter premise, but also accept that it is brutal world without modern concepts of law and morality and the PCs are not perfect people. And whilst you don't need to weep for every slain kobold, perhaps killing thinking and feeling creatures shouldn't be completely sanitised for guilt-free feel-good entertainment?

That does beg a larger question about our media in general, from modern blockbuster movies to video games and beyond. How we sanitize violence and indulge in spectacle. That's probably already beyond this already stretched topic, but if the Avengers can mow down Chutari or Link can slay moblins without reflection, D&D shouldn't be singled out.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yes, they ran the banks. And were greedy, scheming, big-nosed, short, yellow-skinned people. They're an obvious caricature of Jewish people.

Or, as I noted a while back, its not a coincidence that the alien race in the new Master of Orion that looked the least like the MoO2 version was the Gnolem.

 

[Voranzovin]

My objection is to the use of ethnos as a bludgeon to beat down and deflect objective critique of cultural processes.

Now, if I were to say I identify as Jewish - because I recognize the implicit complexity involved in that automoniker - how would that change your opinion of my words?

Is this an objective critique, though? Absent empirical data being used to test some kind of falsifiable hypothesis, I don't think it is purely objective. I disagree with @Maxperson, but he's lived as a Jew and experienced Anti-Semitism, so I'm inclined to give his view some credence. Maybe you have, too, but if so there was no indication of it up till now.

That doesn't, by the way, mean that non-Jews can't have opinions about Anti-Semitism, or that those opinions are required to line up with any Jews who happen to be present (Jews, obviously, don't necessarily agree with each other). It does mean that dismissing the opinion of a Jewish person on the subject gets my hackles up.

I really can't answer the latter question without more information. "Identify as Jewish" is too vague to comment on.

But isn't that kinda the core of the issue with the Ferengi? If a lot of people think that, how do you satirise capitalism without coming across as anti-Semitic?

In Star Trek the Federation has evolved past most of our current societal issues, so to highlight those issues other civilisations are used. I have no doubt that with the Ferengi the intent of TNG writers was to satirise the greed of modern day humans in general and American capitalism in particular. Comparison to 'Yankee traders' is even spoken out loud in the show. Now this of course doesn't mean it couldn't come across as anti-Semitic despite them not intending that. But how could have that been avoided?

It's not that they're a criticism of capitalism alone--its that they're that, plus a bunch of other traits that are reminiscent of anti-Semitic caricatures. They have big ears and hooked noses, they leer, they're cowardly and conniving, and this is contrasted with the straight-backed, brave people of the Federation in a way that is not unlike the comparison made between untrustworthy Jews and honest Aryans in the anti-Semitic works of a particular era. It's all those things together, not any one of them alone.

To be clear, I don't think that anyone in the Next Generation crew was trying to create an anti-Semitic caricature. They were just reaching for something to represent capitalists, and some Jewish caricatures happened to be what was floating around in the cultural ether. Nore am I particularly upset by it--as Anti-Semitism goes, it's pretty mild, and they made up for it in DS9. But I do think it's present.

In Quebec, capitalism is much more associated with the "elite" English speaking Canadians corporates than it is with Jews. Again, this is in the eye of the beholder. Our experiences differ and though I am quite well aware of the Nazi propaganda, it would never cross my mind to think of Jews in such a way

Yeah this will vary a great deal between cultures. It's entirely possible that these particular tropes aren't very present in Quebec.

 

[Maxperson]

Is this an objective critique, though? Absent empirical data being used to test some kind of falsifiable hypothesis, I don't think it is purely objective. I disagree with @Maxperson, but he's lived as a Jew and experienced Anti-Semitism, so I'm inclined to give his view some credence. Maybe you have, too, but if so there was no indication of it up till now.

It's all subjective, even from you and I. That's why we can see the same things and come to different conclusions.

 

[Mordhau]

The autopsy thing was because the ferengi in question was murdered (made to look like a suicide) and there needed to be extra drama involved. Actual ferengi death custom involves desiccating the remains and dividing them up into 52 containers to be sold at auction, and damaging the body (even by violent death) reduces the number of containers that can be sold. (Thank you, Memory Alpha, for the details.)

It should be noted that women weren't excluded from selling things; they were excluded from everything, including clothing (no head coverings).

Ferengi were characterized as having "exaggerated features and embodying wanton greed," but in Star Trek, nearly every species has some sort of exaggerated feature (due to limited SFX and lack of CGI aliens) and embodies a particular trait, since Star Trek is all about the Planets of Hats.

Honestly, the list is just silly. Are they really saying that hiring Jewish actors is somehow antisemitic?

That does make is sound a little different.

 

[Mordhau]

Or you take the latter premise, but also accept that it is a brutal world without modern concepts of law and morality and the PCs are not perfect people. And whilst you don't need to weep for every slain kobold, perhaps killing thinking and feeling creatures shouldn't be completely sanitised for guilt-free feel-good entertainment?

It sort of puzzles me how the Grimdark turn in fantasy gets reviled now and how people don't seem to realise that in many ways it was responding to the same issues.

(And sometimes I think in a more honest way).

 

[Voranzovin]

I'm curious why you think the movie goblins were unavoidably a Jewish caricature. The imagery is from how goblins have been depicted all over the place. Google goblin images and you come up with big noses and pointed ears like that. The banking aspect is from the books.

Absent the explanations the books give, which is a failing of all movies that are made from books, I can see how they would more easily be mistaken for Jews, but since we have the books that the movie goblins are based on, we have context with which to interpret the movie goblins.

It's partly a question of character design:

This guy just screams "Jewish banker" to me, in a way that the description in the books does not necessarily evoke. It is not any one specific trait, which might well be unrelated or just generally come from goblinesque depictions. It's an emergent property of multiple traits. Just as in the case of the Ferangi, I don't think that this means that the character designers were deliberately aiming to create a Jewish caricature, and I'm not hugely offended by it. But it's impossible for me not to see it.

The need for multiple traits is important. I do not, for instance, regard the use of the term phylactery as having any Jewish connotations in Dnd, because Liches don't do anything that otherwise resembles Jews, or caricatures of Jews.

It's all subjective, even from you and I. That's why we can see the same things and come to different conclusions.

I guess I would say that it is partially subjective. There are objectively verifiable elements here--that the caricatures in question exist, and that some aspects of Harry Potter goblins, for instance, resemble those caricatures. There is room for debate on whether that's sufficient to make the goblins themselves a Jewish caricature, and if it does, what that means (my use of the term "unavoidable" was a perhaps ill-advised rhetorical flourish).

 

[Maxperson]

It's partly a question of character design:

This guy just screams "Jewish banker" to me, in a way that the description in the books does not necessarily evoke. It is not any one specific trait, which might well be unrelated or just generally come from goblinesque depictions. It's an emergent property of multiple traits. Just as in the case of the Ferangi, I don't think that this means that the character designers were deliberately aiming to create a Jewish caricature, and I'm not hugely offended by it. But it's impossible for me not to see it.

Sure. I can see how the various elements make it easy for you to see that. For me, intent matters more than coincidental design. I'm not going to be offended by something that incidentally resembles something that is antisemitic.

The need for multiple traits is important. I do not, for instance, regard the use of the term phylactery as having any Jewish connotations in Dnd, because Liches don't do anything that otherwise resembles Jews, or caricatures of Jews.

Yeah. This debate came up a few months ago and @Greg K and I were saying how neither of of was offended by a lich's phylactery and how in all the years we've been playing(very long time players each), we'd gamed with many other Jewish players and none of them had ever been offended by it, either. There were a lot of non-Jews in the discussion telling us how it needed to be changed, because it was offensive to Jews.

I guess I would say that it is partially subjective. There are objectively verifiable elements here--that the caricatures in question exist, and that some aspects of Harry Potter goblins, for instance, resemble those caricatures. There is room for debate on whether that's sufficient to make the goblins themselves a Jewish caricature, and if it does, what that means (my use of the term "unavoidable" was a perhaps ill-advised rhetorical flourish).

Yes. The subjectivity I'm referring to is the interpretation of those objective elements. That picture you showed objectively exists. That the goblin being a banker is an objective fact. The gold he's got his hands on is objective. Whether someone pulls those objective elements together into an interpretation of antisemitism or not is subjective.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

It's not that they're a criticism of capitalism alone--its that they're that, plus a bunch of other traits that are reminiscent of anti-Semitic caricatures. They have big ears and hooked noses, they leer, they're cowardly and conniving, and this is contrasted with the straight-backed, brave people of the Federation in a way that is not unlike the comparison made between untrustworthy Jews and honest Aryans in the anti-Semitic works of a particular era. It's all those things together, not any one of them alone.

Um, actually, they don't have hooked noses. They have bulbous noses. Otherwise, I agree that the characteristics you name are there.

To be clear, I don't think that anyone in the Next Generation crew was trying to create an anti-Semitic caricature. They were just reaching for something to represent capitalists, and some Jewish caricatures happened to be what was floating around in the cultural ether. Nore am I particularly upset by it--as Anti-Semitism goes, it's pretty mild, and they made up for it in DS9. But I do think it's present.

I don't quite understand how DS9 made up for it. There are more sympathetic Ferengi, sure (as should be expected when they're main/recurring characters) but the general traits remain unchanged.

Yeah this will vary a great deal between cultures. It's entirely possible that these particular tropes aren't very present in Quebec.

Yeah, I'm Finnish. I don't think I have particularly good grasp of what is considered to be a Jewish caricature in America. I never made the connection with the Ferengi, I just thought it was Americans mocking their own ultracapitalistic system. But I can certainly see now how it could come across as questionable.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

That doesn't, by the way, mean that non-Jews can't have opinions about Anti-Semitism, or that those opinions are required to line up with any Jews who happen to be present (Jews, obviously, don't necessarily agree with each other). It does mean that dismissing the opinion of a Jewish person on the subject gets my hackles up.

The extent to which one decides to parade one’s ethnic and religious inheritance is entirely a matter of personal choice: I prefer to keep mine removed from most interactions, as I find it does little to illuminate the subject at hand.

I really can't answer the latter question without more information. "Identify as Jewish" is too vague to comment on.

The point of adding the qualifier “identity as” is to illustrate the fact that who qualifies as “Jewish” - whether by maternal inheritance, conversion, cultural affiliation or religious induction - is dependent on tradition (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or Liberal) and is not as clear-cut as some might have you believe.

My observation is that @Maxperson has recently been using the ethnoreligious appelative of “Jewish” to assert primacy in arguments in an attempt to quash dissent.

YMMV, of course.