D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

Well, let's see, how would you satirize capitalism without using Jewish stereotypes...

Well dressed, immaculately groomed individuals wearing expensive suits... Lex Luthor maybe as a good example? Less comic relief, clown buffoon, and more egomaniacal, pernicious, sociopathic evil who people actually stop and think might have a very good point?
The Ferengi wear expensive suits. And they originally were not to mean comical, but the viewers didn't take them seriously, so the writers just embraced them coming across as silly. Not that whether they're comical or seriously threatening has anything to do with the stereotype.

It's not like evil capitalist doesn't already have lots of pretty good examples in genre fiction without resorting to imagery that is pretty much lifted wholesale from nazi propaganda.
Your argument would be stronger if you wouldn't resort to blatantly fallacious hyperbole.
 

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Remathilis

Legend
My reason for not seeing it was because there's not really any stereotypes of "Jews worship Cthulhu-like entities and get transplants from symbiotic alien creatures". That's not a common Jewish stereotype (if it is one at all). The "big nose", "greedy bankers", and the like, those are common Jewish stereotypes.

So, that's a false equivalency. I'm not Jewish, and I'm also not Native American or Mongolian, but I can see how the Harry Potter Goblins and Mystaran Red and Yellow Orcs have stereotypes of certain people. The Mystara example is a bit more explicit, but I also wouldn't compare the Harry Potter Goblin stereotypes to the "Elder God-worshipping Dwarves" from Eberron.
Would the connection be more explicit if I replaced "Cthulhu-like entities" with "reptiloids"?

Alien beings from beyond the stars? Check.
Hidden in an underground location? Check.
Made secret pacts with members of the Bankers and Financial elites of the world? Check.
Into bioengineering and Transhumanism? Check.
Hell-bent on enslaving the entire world? Check.

It absolutely invokes the trope of the sinister cabal controlling the world, and that is classic antisemitism. I guess it might be too on the nose if the Daelkyr had giant space lasers...

But as Micah pointed out, you don't see the connection like how some people didn't see green-skinned pig-men as a stand in for Africans. Everyone has the point where their vision stops.
 


Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
I have reached the point where what I want is for people to just tell us, specifically, what they want D&D to look like lore-wise moving forward. So many arguments about whether or not some piece is acceptable, but no specific call for action beyond removing "problematic" content. What do you actually want to replace it with? What do you want to actually be in the books, once all the "bad" stuff is gone? That's what matters here. I assume we all still want to play the game.
That's the thing. There is not perfect solution. There is no end to this, because fantasy and other fictional works will always be tainted by our internal biases, and many of our internal biases are based off of racism, ableism, sexism, anti-LGBTQ+ bigotry, and other types of bigotry. No one is asking for future writers to be perfect or keep their internal biases away from fantasy, because, frankly, that's impossible to do. Perfection is the enemy of progress.

We will never get rid of every problematic part of D&D, because humans cannot be perfect. However, that isn't an argument against progress, it's one for it. If we aren't vigilant and meticulously scrutinizing D&D products, we're willfully ignorant of the stereotypes that may be perpetuated by the products.

And the answer is different for every scenario. Some of the time, it's better to just abandon the setting if it has so many problems built into its core (Mystara probably falls into this category, and I would even argue that certain parts of the Forgotten Realms do, like Maztica). Sometimes it's better to just ignore that part of a setting when republishing it (like Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft abandoning the Caliban) and publish the product with no mention to it. A lot of the time it's fine to just make minute changes to how certain parts of the product, typically by just removing language or even artwork that is problematic (how the Vistani are described in various Ravenloft products, how the Chultans are described in Tomb of Annihilation, etc). Sometimes you have to retcon something out of existence and replace it with something else (Hexblood kind-of replace Caliban in Ravenloft, but not really). The solution depends on the context. There is no perfect "one-size-fits-all" solution here. Sensitivity readers and cultural consultants are probably needed to fix most of these issues, and even they won't perfectly fix the problem (because nothing will).

A lot of the time, I would be fine with just straight-up ignoring some parts of past settings that could get translated to D&D 5e if they're not that big of a part of the setting (Caliban from Ravenloft, Gully Dwarves from Dragonlance). Sometimes they're such a big part of the setting that it might be better fully abandoning the setting or completely replacing that part of the setting with something entirely different. Sometimes it's fine to keep that part of the setting, but still dialing back the problematic parts of it (I'd probably argue that most of the issues with certain cultures/races in Eberron and Exandria could fairly easily do this).

Context is everything. The answer depends on the context. I don't know what answer you wanted, but I hope this one suffices.
 

Hussar

Legend
The Ferengi wear expensive suits. And they originally were not to mean comical, but the viewers didn't take them seriously, so the writers just embraced them coming across as silly. Not that whether they're comical or seriously threatening has anything to do with the stereotype.


Your argument would be stronger if you wouldn't resort to blatantly fallacious hyperbole.
Really? The pictures were posted earlier by @Sepulchrave II I believe. Let's repeat them for clarity:

1641688591159.png

1641688756641.png


Yeah, totally made up connection there. No points of commonality whatsoever. :erm:
 


Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
That's the thing. There is not perfect solution. There is no end to this, because fantasy and other fictional works will always be tainted by our internal biases, and many of our internal biases are based off of racism, ableism, sexism, anti-LGBTQ+ bigotry, and other types of bigotry. No one is asking for future writers to be perfect or keep their internal biases away from fantasy, because, frankly, that's impossible to do. Perfection is the enemy of progress.

We will never get rid of every problematic part of D&D, because humans cannot be perfect. However, that isn't an argument against progress, it's one for it. If we aren't vigilant and meticulously scrutinizing D&D products, we're willfully ignorant of the stereotypes that may be perpetuated by the products.

And the answer is different for every scenario. Some of the time, it's better to just abandon the setting if it has so many problems built into its core (Mystara probably falls into this category, and I would even argue that certain parts of the Forgotten Realms do, like Maztica). Sometimes it's better to just ignore that part of a setting when republishing it (like Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft abandoning the Caliban) and publish the product with no mention to it. A lot of the time it's fine to just make minute changes to how certain parts of the product, typically by just removing language or even artwork that is problematic (how the Vistani are described in various Ravenloft products, how the Chultans are described in Tomb of Annihilation, etc). Sometimes you have to retcon something out of existence and replace it with something else (Hexblood kind-of replace Caliban in Ravenloft, but not really). The solution depends on the context. There is no perfect "one-size-fits-all" solution here. Sensitivity readers and cultural consultants are probably needed to fix most of these issues, and even they won't perfectly fix the problem (because nothing will).

A lot of the time, I would be fine with just straight-up ignoring some parts of past settings that could get translated to D&D 5e if they're not that big of a part of the setting (Caliban from Ravenloft, Gully Dwarves from Dragonlance). Sometimes they're such a big part of the setting that it might be better fully abandoning the setting or completely replacing that part of the setting with something entirely different. Sometimes it's fine to keep that part of the setting, but still dialing back the problematic parts of it (I'd probably argue that most of the issues with certain cultures/races in Eberron and Exandria could fairly easily do this).

Context is everything. The answer depends on the context. I don't know what answer you wanted, but I hope this one suffices.
So your answer is you want less material in future editions, and constant vigilance in case there is more material we have to remove. I asked what we are replacing content with, not what is your ideal philosophy going forward. What do you want the books to have in them?
 

Hussar

Legend
I have reached the point where what I want is for people to just tell us, specifically, what they want D&D to look like lore-wise moving forward. So many arguments about whether or not some piece is acceptable, but no specific call for action beyond removing "problematic" content. What do you actually want to replace it with? What do you want to actually be in the books, once all the "bad" stuff is gone? That's what matters here. I assume we all still want to play the game.
As was said, there is no one size fits all answer here. How many times has that been repeated in this thread?

It depends on the issue.

But, here's the thing. Doing nothing is what we did for a freaking CENTURY. A hundred years of genre fiction, fifty years (almost) of D&D publications and we're just now having this conversation. It's not like this problem was never identified in the past. It was. It was just ignored because, well, D&D was an all white boys club, just like most of genre fiction, and, well, there was no reason to change.

Now there is. Enough of us have finally realized that no, it's not okay to simply ignore the issues that don't directly impact us. That's what the tyranny of the majority is. It's not groovy that we've got examples like Orcs of Thar in our library. These things are not good. They are most definitely bad. They make people feel bad. They hurt people.

I WANT my hobby to welcome everyone. And that means, in order to welcome everyone, we have to acknowledge the harms we did in the past and attempt to not repeat them in the future.

In specific? Well, give me a specific issue and I'll give you specific answer. Give me a broad, "Well, what do you want to see?" question, and I'll give you a broad, "Let's do better" answer.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
See post #s 2236, 2235, 2228, 2231, 2208, 2198, 438 of this thread.

See also post #s 552, 549, 545, 543 of thread Pathfinder 2E - Paizo drops use of the word phylactery

It's a rhetorical bludgeon, and it's boring.

Mod Note:
You know, you could just find a more congenial discussion. Or maybe put someone on ignore, rather than drag your personal gripes between threads.

Don't get in other peoples faces on stuff when you're being a bit of a boor yourself.
 
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