D&D General The Art and the Artist: Discussing Problematic Issues in D&D

[Umbran]

Do people even have a formal responsibility to be inclusive?

I don't know what you mean by "formal responsibility" in this context. If you mean a law or contract, probably not. But, is our responsibility to each other limited to formal responsibilities? Imagine how crummy your life would likely be if those around you only stuck with those signs of respect they were required to do by law.

Also, this discussion, and the formation of the opinion of folks out in the public, is not a formal process.

In my heart I know that the reason that WotC/Paizo are prioritizing inclusivity is because the market demands it, not because it has inherent value to them.

Well, note that the corporate entities themselves don't do the writing. I recall noting that members of the WotC staff had said they were making changes they wanted to make anyway, and had been suggesting for some time. So, the authors themselves may find it has inherent value to them.

Let's not get things twisted about what motivates a corporation with shareholders. So, let's not pretend that if the zeitgeist was going the other way that WotC wouldn't follow.

To suggest that corporate entities only act on market demand is to suggest a grade-school level simplification of creator/corporate/market dynamics.

 

[Filthy Lucre]

To suggest that corporate entities only act on market demand is to suggest a grade-school level simplification of creator/corporate/market dynamics.

Well, I'm intellectually mature enough to say that since economics is not my field of study, my lay opinion might be completely wrong and uneducated

If only other people had the humility to know when they're completely off of their ass.

 

[Gradine]

Maybe it's been said in this thead, but the saying is, "When you are used to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

Not to bore everyone with the same infographic they've probably seen a million times, but this also applies:

 

[MGibster]

At some point, that fails to be an excuse, though. When a bunch of white guys make a game for themselves, they will not attract a diverse audience. Having done that, using the lack of a diverse audience as a reason to not create for that audience becomes self-fulfilling prophecy.

I think there might be a fundamental difference between expectations here as I don't really care about excusing (or blaming) anyone. Was Lovecraft racist? Yes. Was he a product of his time? Yes. Does that excuse his racism somehow? No. I'm more interested in why Lovecraft was racist and how his beliefs were reflected the time period he lived in than I am in condemning him for his racism.

 

[Lyxen]

Not to bore everyone with the same infographic they've probably seen a million times, but this also applies:

While I like that kind of infographic, can I just ask what it has to do with D&D ? What are the systemic problems of inequity that need to be addressed in the game and its supplements ?

 

[teitan]

There is a ton of gaslighting here to wave away folks criticism. Even if the material was unintended to be offensive, it still can be.

That’s not gas lighting. I’m not trying to convince anyone something didn’t happen or they are crazy. Thank you for your projection. An example of gas lighting would be to tell me that D&D players were non-inclusive and unwelcoming to women and minorities as a whole and the fact is that was more a stereotype born of the “nerd” and “geek” stereotyping of the D&D player perpetuated by pop culture like The Simpsons and other film and TV media where the game was portrayed with disdain and players of the game were looked down upon as basement dwelling troglodytes until it became the cool kid thing to do.

When you look back 20 years ago there were a lot of minorities in the game defining where this game was, is and where it’s going. The modern attitude ignores Janell Jaquays contributions to the game going back to the roots of the game, Steve Kenson in the D20 boom, Chris Perkins, who has been at WOTC since the 3.x era or longer and others.

It’s gas lighting to just hand wave that and say “D&D players weren’t inclusive” when D&D players were very much a part of those same maligned subcultures and outsider groups from the beginning. As a whole. And many of those old timers from the TSR era will go toe to toe with you on modern progressive and inclusivity. Many of the people I played with for 4 decades now are in the LGBT category and half my gaming group in high school was POC. Yes that’s subjective experience but my experiences at conventions were that distrust was more engendered by being stereotyped and ostracized than by an internalized prejudice as these theoretical models would indicate as occurs with more long term problematic areas and sub cultures. D&D didn’t appeal to the same class of people that created the KKK or neo Nazi movements. D&D was seen as weak, as I know from experience growing up in a region strong with those internalized prejudices with a strongly liberal maternal side of the family teaching me how such behavior was wrong and not to be like those people. Reading is stupid, math is for dummies and the only Conan they knew was comic books and movies. D&D kids got shoved in lockers and if they talked to girls they must be gay. How quickly we forget if we didn’t experience these things directly.

 

[MGibster]

I want to say that several of the high-up creators have been pushing for more inclusivity for quite a while, on their twitter accounts, for example. While that may not have gotten corporate to allow pushing for it if it was a money loser, it feels like it would make a difference in how it was done. Especially if they did it in ways that didn't particularly rise to corporates notice (as long as the $$$ kept coming in).

I read that Good Omens received criticism in some circles because it had a rather diverse cast. But for me, it made the story seem bigger, a little more grand in scope.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Not to bore everyone with the same infographic they've probably seen a million times, but this also applies:

Clever. But like many clever attempts to simplify complexity, it strays into being simplistic.

 

[teitan]

Incredibly irony in that you're saying even daring to discuss this subject is inappropriate, just wild. Probably the most extreme statement on the matter I've ever read.

And re: EGG, whether he was racist or not I can't mind-read, but he certainly happily touted some nuclear-grade pro-genocide racist-originated beliefs and approaches as "how it is in D&D" as discussed at length elsewhere.

Did I say it was inappropriate? No I did not. In fact I continued to discuss the topic.

 

[teitan]

That statement shows a (fairly typical) miscomprehension of the issues. If you think the problem is that people are "offended" you don't actually understand the problem.

That’s what they said in the 80s during the Satanic Panic as well though. Are people reading Warhammer and being offended?