D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

  • I'd prefer if the resources were allocated to producing more of what they have been rather than fixing something I've never noticed broken. ...
  • It doesn't align with the core themes of D&D. ...
I haven't seen an earnest argument saying they don't like other people's fun. Please, go into this discussion assuming good faith. Even if you challenge the argument, assume it's being made with honesty.

Fair enough on limited resources. But this is a preference that people that want a Mythic Martial don't share obviously, and for this crowd I would think getting a Mythic Martial is a high priority. Unless there was a real study done (not that sad D&D Next stuff) we don't really know how many folks fit into each category. My hypothesis is that there a bunch of folks that fit into the "really want the option and would jump to play it" and the "may not always play it but think the system would be better off with it as an option amoung others including the current martials".

In terms of core themes of D&D -- the disconnect for me comes from the fluff that martials often get that seems to describe them as equals of Wizards at higher levels without the mechanical backup. I tend to gloss over the 5e fluff so not sure if it's as prominent in this edition but it was in the past.

Not saying you specifically, but in terms of not liking others fun, Mythic Martial supporters don't mind the current Fighter existing while some current Fighter supporters really don't want the Mythic Martial. Resource contraints aside, this comes across as gatekeeping. Also many people that don't want Mythic Martials seem very, very vocal on what the Mythic Martial should look like despite the fact they they don't understand why it's needed, don't want it in the game, and will never play it. I think as long as the Mythic Martial is no more powerful, versatile, and narrative controlling as the Wizard, then the people that actually want to play the Mythic Martial should be catered to and not the people that don't understand why it's needed, don't want it in the game, and will never play it.
 

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Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic. If it has the same effect, look and feel it might as well be Magic.

Incidentally ‘fantastical’ doesn’t mean anything different to ‘magical’
How do you describe non-magical but ostensibly naturally occurring monsters like oozes, winter wolves, giant owls, etc? Or non-magical special materials like mithral or adamantine?
 

How do you describe non-magical but ostensibly naturally occurring monsters like oozes, winter wolves, giant owls, etc? Or non-magical special materials like mithral or adamantine?
What do you mean describe them. You seem concerned with classifying things into boxes. I don’t think it matters at all.

You want a semi-sentient semi-liquid antagonist for the party, fine, use an ooze. But let’s not pretty it’s some kind of fundamentally different force.

A wolf with frost breath is magical, an owl with a 15 foot wingspan is magical, adamantine is magical. I don’t mean enchanted, I mean beyond normal = magical.
 

Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic. If it has the same effect, look and feel it might as well be Magic.

Incidentally ‘fantastical’ doesn’t mean anything different to ‘magical’
🤨 Ah, zero-sum everything is magic, then.

BTW, you are torturing that quote beyond any meaning.
 

What do you mean describe them.
They're fantastic elements that aren't magical.
You seem concerned with classifying things into boxes. I don’t think it matters at all.
I feel like the following attempt to crush the word 'magic' as it pertains to D&D suggests differently:
You want a semi-sentient semi-liquid antagonist for the party, fine, use an ooze. But let’s not pretty it’s some kind of fundamentally different force.

A wolf with frost breath is magical, an owl with a 15 foot wingspan is magical, adamantine is magical. I don’t mean enchanted, I mean beyond normal = magical.
~casts detect magic~

Oh look, no there' not.

By this definition, aluminum is magic. You need to harness lightning to make it and it is unusually light. So magic!

edit: also, they ARE normal for their world. They're naturally occurring.
 

I keep saying it's because being fantastic doesn't mean being magic, but again, ignored so the rhetoric that we're not explaining ourselves can stick.
I know this isn't your position specifically, but I can't seem to connect the two ideas that "martials need to be powerful enough to feel fantastic" and "casters can do everything martials can and more."

Not that they're opposing, but it feels like one can interfere with the other. If martials can move mountains, casters can as well, simply because they can cast True Polymorph or transform into a creature even more powerful. And while you can say they do so limitedly, apparently that argument isn't enough.
 

Fighters can exert influence… it’s called character choice… when character choice is more challenging we use skill checks to moderate. When you want to skip those rules and force an outcome you have magic. Incidentally available to 92% of classes if they want it.

This is of course is a design choice that doesn't haven't to be so. Skipping the base resolution system to use another does not have to be soley associated with magic.
 

Fair enough on limited resources. But this is a preference that people that want a Mythic Martial don't share obviously, and for this crowd I would think getting a Mythic Martial is a high priority. Unless there was a real study done (not that sad D&D Next stuff) we don't really know how many folks fit into each category. My hypothesis is that there a bunch of folks that fit into the "really want the option and would jump to play it" and the "may not always play it but think the system would be better off with it as an option amoung others including the current martials".

In terms of core themes of D&D -- the disconnect for me comes from the fluff that martials often get that seems to describe them as equals of Wizards at higher levels without the mechanical backup. I tend to gloss over the 5e fluff so not sure if it's as prominent in this edition but it was in the past.

Not saying you specifically, but in terms of not liking others fun, Mythic Martial supporters don't mind the current Fighter existing while some current Fighter supporters really don't want the Mythic Martial. Resource contraints aside, this comes across as gatekeeping. Also many people that don't want Mythic Martials seem very, very vocal on what the Mythic Martial should look like despite the fact they they don't understand why it's needed, don't want it in the game, and will never play it. I think as long as the Mythic Martial is no more powerful, versatile, and narrative controlling as the Wizard, then the people that actually want to play the Mythic Martial should be catered to and not the people that don't understand why it's needed, don't want it in the game, and will never play it.

This is why I keep said the Mythic Martial should be a whole different class and the fighter should be focused nd pared down to a weaponmaster.

Really it is just a fight over possession of one class just because WOTC wont create a new class.

I mean I watched enough movies and anime to see how a non-supernatural swordmaster, spearmaster, or bowmaster could be as impactful on multiple fronts as a spellcaster.
 



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