D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Mort]

I agree with all of this, which is why I don’t think the problem is that fighters mash together multiple archetypes. The problem is that for fighters each archetype is implemented by excluding others, rather than additive, in the name of “realism”.

Yes,

It just seems the designers approach casters from a "hey, wouldn't this be cool!" first and worry about balance/realism 2nd.

They approach martials (especially the no magic fighter) from a balance/realism first and "wouldn't this be cool...!" second.

And since they seem to be conservative with non-casters, many ideas don't get past step 1, so here's where we are.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Fighters are already magic due to being able to survive stuff like being crushed by thousand ton boulders, being struck by meteors, and bitten by moons. They can also regenerate from near death to completely fine in one hour, and kill building-sized monsters with a kitchen knife.

I could see the point if they were really grounded already, but D&D is very far from what, wanting to actually be superhuman in other stuff is expectable.

 

[TheSword]

It's in the implementation. Why would a fighter be able to buff themselves or even someone else? And if they did why (a) would it have a verbal or material component, (b) why would it have a minute duration and (c) why would it be subject to counterspell? (And (d) why could they let someone else do it by touch?)

All spells are abilities. But not all abilities are spells - and spells have a very specific flavour with attached themes and limitations.

Now if you gave the fighter stamina points and one of the things they could spend stamina on through focusing and deep breathing would be to enhance their own jumping distance to the point of tripling it that wouldn't jar in the same way at all. Or to put things another way if leap was just jump then I'd find it possibly more jarring than you'd find automatic flying.

A lot depends on the implementation.

Would a rose by any other name be as rosy?

See I think it is more than possible to work back from what you want to achieve and justify it after the fact. A power lasts a minute because you can’t sustain the concentration required for more than a short time. Counterspell works because it’s possible to interrupt a person ability to focus their own power that way. Etc etc.

The artificer has shown that it doesn’t actually matter whether a fireball is summoned from the ether or combined from two different bags of reactive powders, when the effect is broadly the same.

Not all abilities are spells, but a spell is just a word for a discrete effect. In the interest of compatibility, balance, and non wanting to repeat ourselves if it can be done by re-flavoring a spell (a-la-alchemists) then we should use that method.

Internal vs external sources, components, whether it’s affected by antimagic sphere is all just a smokescreen. A lot of the arguments I can see here, mirror the subject of psionics, which seems to evoke similar arguments around how something feels. Equally intractable, equally demanding of something unique and special no matter how close existing options gets.

 

[Vaalingrade]

This feels like more of a hard-magic/soft-magic divide issue. You want to quantify how "martial magic" works, but for a lot of the types of stories that support the high-powered martial trope (like a lot of mythology), magic doesn't really get quantified.

It's really a lack of a divide between the broader category of 'Fantastic elements' and the specific fantastic element of 'magic'.

It's saying the One Ring is fundamentally the same as big spiders. Granted, the performative fear of the internet would have to think they were equal in threat, but still.

 

[Mort]

See I think it is more than possible to work back from what you want to achieve and justify it after the fact. A power lasts a minute because you can’t sustain the concentration required for more than a short time. Counterspell works because it’s possible to interrupt a person ability to focus their own power that way. Etc etc.

The artificer has shown that it doesn’t actually matter whether a fireball is summoned from the ether or combined from two different bags of reactive powders, when the effect is broadly the same.

Not all abilities are spells, but a spell is just a word for a discrete effect. In the interest of compatibility, balance, and non wanting to repeat ourselves if it can be done by re-flavoring a spell (a-la-alchemists) then we should use that method.

Internal vs external sources, components, whether it’s affected by antimagic sphere is all just a smokescreen. A lot of the arguments I can see here, mirror the subject of psionics, which seems to evoke similar arguments around how something feels. Equally intractable, equally demanding of something unique and special no matter how close existing options gets.

Yes, I just posted this exactly this.

the how is 100% fluff and can be explained at any point - or even differently based on world, campaign etc.

The What is the key here. What (if anything) is necessary/desirable to bring fighters in closer parity to wizards across the 3 tiers of play? That question has to be answered well before delving into the fluff of it all.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I gave you a whole list back in post 429

here it is again
adrenaline, training in mind body soul, warrior mana, the power of fiath... the power of love. power of pure will to over come... someone that watching dragonball and neruto might have more names for it...

the weave is just something we made up... we can make up 100 power sources... or we can use one... "warriors through str of will perserveance and physical training tap the weave to perform superhuman and extrodinary feats not of magic but of pure martial prowes..."

"The force talks to little things in our blood and lets us talk to nature andthe cosmic reality"

I mean we can make up what ever we want... WotC made the weave (I think TSR did in FR 2e but not sure, it is my least fav settin) so what stops them form making a martial power sources?

In one of my personal 'now shut up' responses to 'but my ~versimilitude~!' was that since adamantine and mithral exist in large enough quantities that doors are being made of the stuff, it's likely they're trace minerals that enter every living creature via the food chain, thus making all living things in the world lighter and more resilient than Earthbound versions.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Neither does a bard, sorcerer, warlock, etc etc etc.

I already addressed the fact they can spend spell slots on other spells. Versatility has it's price in every other game. Why not D&D?

The bard could be a half caster like the paladin and still be overpowered. Warlock puts out fighter damage AND has spells. Sorcerer is a full 9 level caster, so already has plenty of ways to contribute, plus is CHA cased, so already has good footing.

Moreover, Knock uses a spell slot, while Thieves Tools are at will. The horror! So broken!

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

does it really matter what the caster still has in the tank if the fight is over & the short rest classes are demanding the gm give them yet another short rest before they take a step anywhere but leomund's invincible fortress so they can bl;ow through it all again?

The fighter could have all of their (lol) powers up at the start of every fight and it still wouldn't be good enough.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The artificer has shown that it doesn’t actually matter whether a fireball is summoned from the ether or combined from two different bags of reactive powders, when the effect is broadly the same.

The artificer explicitly casts spells.

Not all abilities are spells, but a spell is just a word for a discrete effect.

No it isn't. A spell is a specific subset of discrete effects. Barbarian rage is not a spell but is a discrete effect. Bardic inspiration is not a spell but is a discrete effect. Action Surge is a discrete effect but not a spell.

In the interest of compatibility, balance, and non wanting to repeat ourselves if it can be done by re-flavoring a spell (a-la-alchemists) then we should use that method.

And I'm pointing out we can't simply re-flavour spells. We need to actively re-write the ability to strip out the mechanically included spell parts.

I would also say that unless something is a spell we should not reference that spell for an ability. We shouldn't be making it a cookie cutter ability that makes the game harder to play because it requires more cross referencing and at the same time makes the game blander by using off the peg spells rather than what actually works for the character ability.

What you get if you insist on using the spell rules the way you want to is that everyone ends up feeling like a prosthetic-forehead alien from Star Trek.

Internal vs external sources, components, whether it’s affected by antimagic sphere is all just a smokescreen. A lot of the arguments I can see here, mirror the subject of psionics, which seems to evoke similar arguments around how something feels.

The problem with psionics is that there are two separate camps; those who think that psionics should be its own thing and distinctive, and those who think that it should work the same way it did in previous editions where psions were just spellcasters with a different collection of spells.

Equally intractable, equally demanding of something unique and special no matter how close existing options gets.

As far as I can tell the only group unhappy with psionics as they are right now are a small subset of those who want classic psions back. Most people who want psionics to be different and interesting like the soulknife and psi warrior while most of those who want psions like the aberrant mind.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

It's intentionally reductionist for a reason. Mythic is magic with an artificial distinction. Much like how people argue till they are blue in the face that psionics is not and never should be classified as magic, even though psionics is a clearly supernatural. To me this feels like the kind of hair-splitting of "don't call my psionics 'magic".

Batman is supposedly a peak human with no supernatural abilities. Same thing with Black Widow, iirc. Or Green Arrow. Even in a world of Gods and Monsters, they don't do anything more than a "peak human" can do. This is where I would put the limit of the "nonmagical fighter". They can do what a peak human can. If we're not making the fighter have supernatural abilities, this is my limit.

If we are going to give them supernatural or mythic abilities, you gotta name a source. Wolverine is a mutant, Hulk was blasted with gamma radiation, Cap was infused with super-serum. If you're transcending what a normal mortal can do you gotta say how.

Dragons are innately "magical" creatures. They can do things fantastical because they are born fantastical. Now, if you want fighters to do fantastical things, they must either be born fantastical or somehow become fantastical. In D&D, neither is particularly hard to do. But you gotta explain why suddenly your swordsman faster than a speeding bullete, more powerful than a lightning rail and able to leap tall towers in a single bound. Give me something.

I'm not asking for a fighter to cast spells, nor do I want him to reign in mediocrity. I just want a little more justification for why he can now do superhero mythic bullocks other than "he's 11th level now."

Sure, I'm fine with this as long as one of the options for the justification is something like -- all PC races are descended from the ancient race of numorians and this sometime manifests itself in martial superheroic abilities. No one remembers the numorians and people just know that sometimes these heros appear.

Some players can choose more explicit "source" like son of a god, drank from the fountain of power, whatever but I'd want one source to be more of a "the fantasy world just produces these heros sometimes because it's a magical world".

SInce we seem to be stuck with the zero to God path that has been established by the modern D&D Wizard, I would want to emulate that in the mythic martial as well. So you get peak human 1-4, movie action hero / street superhero stuff from levels 5-10, and then move into full martial superhero 10-15, and cosmic superhero / D&D WIzard level stuff at 16-20 or whatever.