Neonchameleon
Legend
To be fair this is a major advantage of a Beast of the AirThe beast is a melee combatant. It’ll get hit by AoEs on occasion.
To be fair this is a major advantage of a Beast of the AirThe beast is a melee combatant. It’ll get hit by AoEs on occasion.
Well, since 1/2 is greater than 1/3, they do get more then you are giving them credit for. As is that half casters get cantrips to trade away. So this is at least partially a perception thing, since by the book they have more than you are giving them credit for. I think it may be partially due to your feelings about the spell list and number of them known.Okay, so it's not as much that the BM is frustrating, though damage mitigation would be simpler and more user friendly than several ways to heal the thing. It's more that the Ranger has multiple intersecting points of frustrating limitation, and the BM is just the subclass that illustrates this dynamic most clearly.
So the frustrating mechanical conflicts within the Ranger's design (or in the general design of 5e that seems to hit the Ranger harder than many other classes) are:
- Very limited Spellcasting, with a spell list that speaks to versatility but can't really deliver due to the tiny amount of spells known (I feel like I'm using a 1/3 caster that traded cantrips for more spell slots, at low level, and I'm not sure I think the trade was worth it). Ritual casting would help, or simply more new spells known as you level than is the case. Tasha's helps a bit, in that I've got 3 more spells than I'd have without it, but it's not comparable to prepared casters.
Mechanically that could be a solution. Thematically as well, preparing from the whole list like a druid.
- I'd simply fix this by having Ranger have the same number of spells known (or a few more) as the paladin has spells prepared. Or make the Ranger a prepared caster, so their toolkit is much more broad than it currently is.
A half caster/half martial that doesn't play mechanically like the other half caster/half martial seems like the right design choice. Otherwise you only need a single class.
- Nearly every offensive spell, and most of your other spells besides, are concentration. You cannot nova like a paladin, and you can't even buff the team offensively, which feels like something the ranger should be good at. The PHB Ranger even has to spend spell slots (and concentrate I think), in order to use one of it's exploration powers that isn't a spell!
- The action economy is pretty bad. The ranger is hyper reliant on the bonus action, and few subclasses mitigate this at all. Favored Foe does in theory, but it is pretty much always less powerful than casting hunter's mark.
- In the case of the BM, you need to use your bonus action to cast your bread and butter combat spells, to command the beast to attack, to use some ranger class features, and several of your best support spells. The melee ranger simply cannot be a dual wielding beast master.
- One benefit the BM does have, is that you can have the beast attack in a round where you cast an action spell. Of course, I feel like most ranger subclasses get their main damage buff even when using a turn to cast an offensive spell, but I could be wrong.
IMO, If Hunter's Mark was a Class Feature that didn't require a bonus action then every fighter would multiclass ranger to get it. I'm not sure there's a way that could be designed where that wouldn't happen.I think this ties into your next point about action economy. For example, if Hunter's Mark was a class feature that didn't require a bonus action to start/target, and if two weapon fighting didn't have the bonus action "tax" on it, it just occured with your Attack action, then the rest of the bonus actions are good, and it's firmly putting ranger slots into more of an exploration role with occasional combat.
The way to design that it doesn't happen is to make the opportunity cost too great. Perhaps the feature is granted at 3rd level. An extra d6 per hit, so less than 2 pointed expected damage per attack, isn't all that great.IMO, If Hunter's Mark was a Class Feature that didn't require a bonus action then every fighter would multiclass ranger to get it. I'm not sure there's a way that could be designed where that wouldn't happen.
+1d6 is roughly halfway to the -5/+10 effect of GWM on the fighter. (+2d6 comes out really close to it for average AC's). I find comparisons to GWM really help put things in perspectiveThe way to design that it doesn't happen is to make the opportunity cost too great. Perhaps the feature is granted at 3rd level. An extra d6 per hit, so less than 2 pointed expected damage per attack, isn't all that great.
Rangers don't get more than 2 attacks and already get dueling style. So, IMO that's not a great counterpoint .Actually, when written that way, it's avg 3.5 damage vs. static 2 damage for dueling style. Yet we don't see a bunch of rangers multiclassing fighter for that fighting style. So I think you are overstating the case.
The weapon restriction still impacts the monk, right?Now, every MONK would be multiclassing ranger if we didn't have a reasonable opportunity cost.
I can’t tell if this is meant to be pedantic snark or not. Yes, half is more than a third. And the Ranger feels like less than half.Well, since 1/2 is greater than 1/3, they do get more then you are giving them credit for.
Tbh known casters are in bad shape in 5e. It’s just strictly less good than prepared casting. Fewer spells known than same-level prepared casters have prepared, vastly slower ability to change spells, and their Spellcasting seems to be given the same weight in balancing classes.As is that half casters get cantrips to trade away. So this is at least partially a perception thing, since by the book they have more than you are giving them credit for. I think it may be partially due to your feelings about the spell list and number of them known.
It would definitely fit better thematically. I’d settle for more spells known, though.Mechanically that could be a solution. Thematically as well, preparing from the whole list like a druid.
That’s part of the problem with a few different classes, sure.The issue seems to be that the class features they get and reliable, steady, low damage. Both Hunter's Mark and the PHB subclass features work towards that. That works out to what the paladin can nova or more -- in the minds of designers who assume 6-8 encounters per adventuring day. But not in the real world where few DMs regularly run that many encounters per day.
Absolutely. I don’t even mind Hunter’s mark being a bonus action spell, though I think that needing one to re-target is unnecessary.I think this ties into your next point about action economy. For example, if Hunter's Mark was a class feature that didn't require a bonus action to start/target, and if two weapon fighting didn't have the bonus action "tax" on it, it just occured with your Attack action, then the rest of the bonus actions are good, and it's firmly putting ranger slots into more of an exploration role with occasional combat.
A subclass shouldn’t rely on specific spells being chosen to not be frustrating to play.A few thoughts:
On Survivability
- You have the Aid Spell. You can upcast that with a level 3 slot to grant the beast 10 more hp for the day. (Or convince the cleric or bard to cast it on your beast).
If I wanted to play a falconer, and had started a CharOp thread to that effect, and didn’t already know how the mechanics of the game work, this would be very helpful.
- Despite having 10 lower hp, the beast of the sky is arguably more survivable due to flyby, higher speed and flying so that it can hit enemies and get out of the way of their melee attacks and AOE's.
And I’ve acknowledge it, multiple times, so why point it out again?
- Others have already pointed out that you can essentially heal the beast to full for a single spell slot and a minute of time.
I find that my time is more fruitfully spent when I don’t assume that the people I’m talking to have literally no basic knowledge of the topic at hand.
- Your beast can help make other PC's more survivable. (Enemies can target it and it's OA's can help deter them rushing past the front line, assuming it stays in melee).
- At level 15 the beast can be affected by your use of absorb elements due to the Share Spells feature.
This is just dismissively flippant, and adds nothing to the discussion. Also, might want to read the Nature’s Veil ability from Tasha’s.On Bonus Actions
- As a level 10 Ranger using a gun you really don't need any other bonus action than commanding your beast. Ranger's don't naturally get any bonus action abilities. All of your other bonus actions come from spells. You can choose to avoid picking bonus action spells.
Okay.On Damage
- You are a Ranger with a strong magic weapon and often bonus action attack. Outside of the most highly optimized of characters your damage should be really solid.
- You have access to Conjure Animals. Amazing spell for damage or enemy action denial. Even if you can't pick what to summon.
As long as your enemies don’t have very high strength saves, sure. What’s that got to do with the Beast Master? Or any part of the point of the thread?On Control
- Entangle is one of the best uses for your level 1 slots. Much better than hunter's mark.
Difficult terrain can be really good, and if you’re in a forest or other area of dense foliage, the rest can hinder enemies nicely. It doesn’t solve any part of what makes the Ranger and especially the BM frustrating to play, of course, so I’m at a loss as to what your point is.
- Plant growth is an amazing control spell against anything without strong ranged attacks or flying. You can singlehandedly win certain encounters with this spell (and it's no save).
Highly situational spells, which isn’t what you want when you can’t easily change spells and don’t know that many.Anti-Caster
- Fog Cloud - Many spells require line of sight to use
- Silence - Many spells require Verbal Component to use
That isn’t very many. And most of the best ones compete for your bonus action, compete with the attack action, compete for your concentration, or some combination of those.I guess a good question would be what spell choices you made. You had 8ish known spells afterall?
But that's the point. It is LITERALLY not less than half, it IS half. So this is a mis-calibration in your perception, since you are seeing it as less than it really is. There is no snark there; I'm pointing out a blind spot so you are aware of it.I can’t tell if this is meant to be pedantic snark or not. Yes, half is more than a third. And the Ranger feels like less than half.
The second part is corrrect. The first part is not. It's a balance point. Look at the bard - they get a ton of other class features, but their casting isn't as good as the wizard because they are known. That does not put them in bad shape, it's a balance point to lessen their full casting some because they get more other features. Just like having different size and specialization of spell lists is a balance point.Tbh known casters are in bad shape in 5e. It’s just strictly less good than prepared casting.
All of the half-casters are spells known. So yes, that is given the same balance. There is literally no one who is considered lesser for this, yet you are trying to imply the ranger is.Fewer spells known than same-level prepared casters have prepared, vastly slower ability to change spells, and their Spellcasting seems to be given the same weight in balancing classes.
Literally only in the sense of spell level progression. The Paladin and Artificer are actual half-casters. You know that spell level progression isn't the whole of the spellcasting feature, yes?But that's the point. It is LITERALLY not less than half, it IS half.
No. The spellcasting of the Ranger is less than half of the spellcasting of the Druid, Cleric, or Wizard.So this is a mis-calibration in your perception, since you are seeing it as less than it really is. There is no snark there; I'm pointing out a blind spot so you are aware of it.
If you think the Ranger is as powerful as the Paladin or Artificer, there is no point to this conversation.What you are assuming is a half caster is too high. Ranger is right on the mark for it, as a half caster.
The Bard is powerful because it's overloaded, having nearly the skill mastery of the rogue, "full" casting, and bardic inspiration, before even getting into subclasses. Compare that to the Warlock and Sorcerer. Both lag behind every single prepared fullcaster.The second part is corrrect. The first part is not. It's a balance point. Look at the bard - they get a ton of other class features, but their casting isn't as good as the wizard because they are known. That does not put them in bad shape, it's a balance point to lessen their full casting some because they get more other features. Just like having different size and specialization of spell lists is a balance point.
There are 3 half casters in 5e; Ranger, Paladin, and Artificer. Of them, only the Ranger is a known spells caster. You are factually incorrect about how the classes work, and yet you lecture me about "blindspots".All of the half-casters are spells known. So yes, that is given the same balance. There is literally no one who is considered lesser for this, yet you are trying to imply the ranger is.