D&D 5E If you use thunderstep but teleport less than 10 feet do you take damage?

[Lyxen]

I had a response typed out, but it's not worth it. Go ahead and have your instantaneous 6ish second Star Trek teleports. Go ahead and have your light speed walking and running to beat instantaneous teleports.

Thank you, I shall, now that I have your permission.

 

[Lyxen]

You chose to argue that the speed of sound is different in 5e (which is never brought up in rules and honestly sounds — pun intended —far-fetched that no one has ever mentioned that thunder doesn’t follow lightning).

Well, there have been numerous discussions about the speed of light (assuming that it's not infinite, by the way) in D&D settings, as well as gravity, etc. so why not the speed of sound.

Just so that you know, in our campaigns, air is not composed of O2 and N2 and other minor stuffs, it's just stuff from the elemental plane of air, which is just one element. Same as fire, which is often just stuff from the elemental plane of fire, not combustion that needs combustible and comburant and leaves a residue.

If someone feels that one effect (teleport) has a tiny delay, shouldn’t another effect (boom) that happens after the first also have a delay.

It does, the thing is that an instant is already something not defined by the rules, and for a good reason, it's a narrative element. After that, if you want other things to happen in an instant, one after the other, well, they happen in instants too, which does not preclude the whole process to happen in an instant as well.

No one is advocating punishing casters. If a DM allowed a PC to use an explosive and PC failed to get far enough away from it, they’d still take damage. Same with a fireball spell that a caster selected a point only 10 feet away — they can’t choose to not take damage. The spell only does what it says it does.

Indeed.

Thunderstep’s duration is instantaneous. It causes teleportation. Teleportation happens instantly. The boom happens immediately after.

Sorry, once more, this is not what is written in the spell. The WHOLE SPELL happens in an instant, that is all that we know. And we also know, because it's written plainly in the description, is that the boom occurs after the disappearance, not the teleport. And that the spell dissociated disappearance and appearance in its description.

If teleportation caused a time delay before a reappearance, the spell would say so.

But it does, it takes "an instant". It doesn't say "zero time", which by the way, would be silly, because if it were really zero time, there would not be any reason for the caster not to be caught in his own blast, for example.

 

[plisnithus8]

Just so that you know, in our campaigns, air is not composed of O2 and N2 and other minor stuffs

A DM an change the game however they like. But those changes don’t have bearing on a rules question like this.

It does, the thing is that an instant is already something not defined by the rules, and for a good reason, it's a narrative element. After that, if you want other things to happen in an instant, one after the other, well, they happen in instants too, which does not preclude the whole process to happen in an instant as well.

Where are you getting the “an instant” phrase”?
The boom happens “immediately.”
Teleport happens “instantly.”
Thunderstep’s duration is “instantaneous.”

And that the spell dissociated disappearance and appearance in its description.

The first sentence says you teleport to a space.
Then it says after that the boom occurs. There is no dissociation: it doesn’t mention a time gap or difference in disappearance and reappearance — it treats them as the same event. Teleport to a space, then boom.
If the spell meant for there to be a gap/difference between disappearance and reappearance, the spell would have said so. If a DM doesn’t want to they can choose their own way.

But it does, it takes "an instant". It doesn't say "zero time", which by the way, would be silly, because if it were really zero time, there would not be any reason for the caster not to be caught in his own blast, for example.

Except the spell says the boom happens after. The sequence is written in spell description. It lays out the process in the order of its sentence structure. And to clarify, it uses the descriptor “after.”

 

[Lyxen]

A DM an change the game however they like. But those changes don’t have bearing on a rules question like this.

Prove that it's a change. Prove that, in the D&D world, according to the rules, the air is made of O2 and N2 rather than elemental air. I'm sure you will find this very difficult since the game, rightly, leaves that question open.

Where are you getting the “an instant” phrase”?

From the rules actually, the only ones on this subject. "Instantaneous" is a term used for spells, and the definition is as follows:

The boom happens “immediately.”

After the disappearance.

Teleport happens “instantly.”

Prove it. Where is it said in the rules.

Thunderstep’s duration is “instantaneous.”

And that includes the disappearance, THEN the boom at the very least, showing that there can be a sequence of events in an instant.

The first sentence says you teleport to a space.

Cool, does it say anything about the timing ?

Then it says after that the boom occurs.

No, the boom occurs after the disappearance.

There is no dissociation: it doesn’t mention a time gap or difference in disappearance and reappearance — it treats them as the same event. Teleport to a space, then boom.

Again, read the spell, appearance and disappearance are discussed separately on two occasions.

If the spell meant for there to be a gap/difference between disappearance and reappearance, the spell would have said so. If a DM doesn’t want to they can choose their own way.

And that is EXACTLY my point. If you want the appearance to be simultaneous with the disappearance, you can do so, but it I want the appearance to be after the boom, I can do so as well.

Except the spell says the boom happens after.

... After what ? After the disappearance, not after the teleportation, not after the appearance. It is VERY specific.

The sequence is written in spell description. It lays out the process in the order of its sentence structure. And to clarify, it uses the descriptor “after.”

Indeed, but after what ?

The problem is that, as some other people you infer that the appearance needs to be absolutely simultaneous with the disapperance, but NOTHING says so in the description. Nor in any teleportation spell, actually, they only say that the overall teleportation happens in an instant, not in 0 time.

Both interpretations are valid, which is why people should not try to shoot down the other point of view. It's as valid as theirs, even if it requires thinking differently.

 

[Irlo]

And that is EXACTLY my point. If you want the appearance to be simultaneous with the disappearance, you can do so, but it I want the appearance to be after the boom, I can do so as well.

Quoted for emphasis. Both interpretations are consistent with RAW.

 

[plisnithus8]

The problem is that, as some other people you infer that the appearance needs to be absolutely simultaneous with the disapperance, but NOTHING says so in the description. Nor in any teleportation spell, actually, they only say that the overall teleportation happens in an instant, not in 0 time.

Instant, instantly, instantaneous, and immediately either mean the same thing or they don’t. The most common definition of instantly is immediately. An instant, instantaneously, and instantly are not always exactly the same. Where are you getting. The phrase “an instant”?

Both interpretations are valid, which is why people should not try to shoot down the other point of view. It's as valid as theirs, even if it requires thinking differently.

It seems you are saying others are shooting down your interpretation as you go point by point trying to disapprove theirs.

I don’t understand how you can say teleport has a time gap, but a boom does not. If you say a spell happens with no gap, then it is clear that the boom happens after the teleport. If a spell does have a gap, then wouldn’t boom-to-damage too? In that case, if you say the boom damage happens before reappearance, you are selectively choosing timing the time gaps.

The 5e rules don’t define the chemical composition of air or the speed of sound (they also don’t define the color purple or say that humans are born with kidneys).
It would seem reasonable to carry over things not mentioned in the rules from the real world to assist understanding the truly magical things in a fantasy world, but that doesn’t have to happen.

The rules also don’t mention a gap in time for teleportation. If you want to make your game have one, you can, but that doesn’t add one to RAW. Saying that the description mentions teleport and disappear in different places doesn’t prove that they are different things with a gap between them.Thunderstep doesn’t mention a gap in time; it does mention a gap in distance. Bridging distance is the underlying definition of what teleport means. The spell’s description mentions that. There are instances in other genres that teleportation might have a time gap, but there is nothing in the this spell’s description that mentions a possibility of that.

Thunderstep’s description does mention “teleport” without defining it in the description, but there is already a spell called Teleport that does clue us in that the process happens “instantly,” a synonym for “immediately,” the word used for the boom that happens after.

If the spell meant for the caster to be able to negate their own damage from the spell, it would have mentioned that. A spell does what it says it does.

Aside from the debate, my guess is that the spell’s writer used the word “disappear” as a synonym for teleport. They didn’t consider the caster not teleporting out of damage range so described the boom in relation to the disappearance location.

 

[Cadence]

Just so that you know, in our campaigns, air is not composed of O2 and N2 and other minor stuffs, it's just stuff from the elemental plane of air, which is just one element. Same as fire, which is often just stuff from the elemental plane of fire, not combustion that needs combustible and comburant and leaves a residue.

Is there any risk of suffocation in enclosed areas? (Do people exhale something other than air? Presumably it never gets wetter in the enclosed space than during a rain storm, or smokier or hotter than standing down wind from a fire, or dustier than a sandstorm, so it would seem not to be enough water or fire or earth to suffocate them?)

 

[Lyxen]

Instant, instantly, instantaneous, and immediately either mean the same thing or they don’t. The most common definition of instantly is immediately. An instant, instantaneously, and instantly are not always exactly the same. Where are you getting. The phrase “an instant”?

Again, from the rules, so that at least I have some RAW support.: "Many spells are instantaneous. The spell harms, heals, creates, or alters a creature or an object in a way that can’t be dispelled, because its magic exists only for an instant."

It seems you are saying others are shooting down your interpretation as you go point by point trying to disapprove theirs.

No, I'm trying to have some people shed their pre-conceptions and force others to use their interpretation, which relies not on RAW but on their own personal principles.

I don’t understand how you can say teleport has a time gap, but a boom does not.

Because the spell says that the first thing that happens after the disappearance (not the teleport, the disappearance), is the boom, it's immediately after.

If you say a spell happens with no gap

The rules only say that spells with an "instantaneous" duration happen in an instant. The rules NEVER say that there is no gap, so I don't say so either.

, then it is clear that the boom happens after the teleport.

And again, by saying this, you are trying to force the fact that there is no gap between the disappearance and the appearance in a teleport, which is NOT what the rules say. The rules ONLY say that the teleportation takes "an instant".

If a spell does have a gap, then wouldn’t boom-to-damage too? In that case, if you say the boom damage happens before reappearance, you are selectively choosing timing the time gaps.

No, I'm applying the spell as written, which says that after the disappearance, what IMMEDIATELY happens is the boom. Not the reappearance.

The 5e rules don’t define the chemical composition of air or the speed of sound (they also don’t define the color purple or say that humans are born with kidneys).
It would seem reasonable to carry over things not mentioned in the rules from the real world to assist understanding the truly magical things in a fantasy world, but that doesn’t have to happen.

Good, then we are in agreement, real earth physics do NOT need to happen in the fantasy world of D&D. The rules do NOT mandate this.

The rules also don’t mention a gap in time for teleportation.

No, but they also don't mention that there is no gap. As explained above, it takes "an instant". So a Star Trek teleportation is according to the RAW, it lasts only an instant, but not zero time, which is something else entirely.

Note that I'm not saying that there has to be a gap, it could also be that the disappearance takes an instant and the appearance as well, on top of a gap of just an instant. Lots of possibilities, and the rules don't forbid or mandate any of them.

If you want to make your game have one, you can, but that doesn’t add one to RAW.

As the RAW say nothing on the subject, saying that there is no gap is actually adding something to the RAW.

Saying that the description mentions teleport and disappear in different places doesn’t prove that they are different things with a gap between them.

Something is happening in between (the boom), so there IS some sort of gap.

Thunderstep doesn’t mention a gap in time; it does mention a gap in distance. Bridging distance is the underlying definition of what teleport means.

In an instant, in D&D rules. Not in zero time.

The spell’s description mentions that. There are instances in other genres that teleportation might have a time gap, but there is nothing in the this spell’s description that mentions a possibility of that.

The possibility is open in ALL teleportation spells, since they ONLY say that it takes "an instant", not zero time. But the suspicion is higher with thunder step because something DOES happen, the boom.

Thunderstep’s description does mention “teleport” without defining it in the description, but there is already a spell called Teleport that does clue us in that the process happens “instantly,” a synonym for “immediately,”

Not exactly. First, immediately does not mean "zero time either". Second, "instantly" is not used, "instantaneous" is used with the definition of the rules, which means "in an instant". Not zero time.

the word used for the boom that happens after.

If the spell meant for the caster to be able to negate their own damage from the spell, it would have mentioned that. A spell does what it says it does.

If the spell was meant to damage the caster if he did not go far enough, it would have mentioned that. A spell does what it says it does. In this case, it cuts both ways, you see.

Aside from the debate, my guess is that the spell’s writer used the word “disappear” as a synonym for teleport.

That is your very personal interpretation. I prefer to think that the writers used a word to say EXACTLY what it says it means, just the disappearance.

They didn’t consider the caster not teleporting out of damage range so described the boom in relation to the disappearance location.

And then maybe they did ? Maybe the authors of the most successful TTRPG in history were more clever than you or I and anticipated this reading, while still leaving the spell open to interpretation? Do you have any proof of what you are saying ?

Otherwise, the spell stands as written, with the word disappearance just meaning "disappearance" because it makes perfect sense as well...

 

[Umbran]

Thank you, I shall, now that I have your permission.

Once you have browbeaten someone out of a discussion, this kind of parting shot is at best unsportsmanlike. Please be better.

 

[plisnithus8]

Again, from the rules, so that at least I have some RAW support.: "Many spells are instantaneous. The spell harms, heals, creates, or alters a creature or an object in a way that can’t be dispelled, because its magic exists only for an instant."

It seems contradictory to say the definition of Teleport doesn’t doesn’t apply to the word teleport in Thunderstep while pulling the phrase “an instant” in as a synonym for “instantly.” If anything, “an instant” in your quote is relating to “instantaneous” duration, not “instantly” teleporting.

No, I'm trying to have some people shed their pre-conceptions and force others to use their interpretation, which relies not on RAW but on their own personal principles.

It seems like you are saying your interpretation is RAW because you keep using RAW in your arguments.

The rules only say that spells with an "instantaneous" duration happen in an instant. The rules NEVER say that there is no gap, so I don't say so either.

A spell only does what it says it does. The rules also don’t say a Tarrasque appears. No matter what I say, the spell doesn’t change the composition of air by RAW, even though as DM I can ignore RAW.

And again, by saying this, you are trying to force the fact that there is no gap between the disappearance and the appearance in a teleport, which is NOT what the rules say. The rules ONLY say that the teleportation takes "an instant".

The spell never uses the phrase “an instant” in regard to the speed of the teleport portion of the spell.

No, I'm applying the spell as written, which says that after the disappearance, what IMMEDIATELY happens is the boom. Not the reappearance.

The spell never mentions reappearance. It makes no distinction between the timing of teleport, disappearance, or reappearance.

No, but they also don't mention that there is no gap. As explained above, it takes "an instant". So a Star Trek teleportation is according to the RAW, it lasts only an instant, but not zero time, which is something else entirely.

There is nothing in RAW that says teleport takes time. It says the entire spell happens “instantaneously.” Teleport happens instantly/immediately.

Note that I'm not saying that there has to be a gap, it could also be that the disappearance takes an instant and the appearance as well, on top of a gap of just an instant. Lots of possibilities, and the rules don't forbid or mandate any of them.

But if there is a gap in disappear/reappear part of the spell, why wouldn’t there also be a gap in the boom/damage part? If you are going to create a gap that the description doesn’t mention, why would it only apply to part of the spell (a part that protects the caster)?

As the RAW say nothing on the subject, saying that there is no gap is actually adding something to the RAW.

RAW doesn’t mention an infinite number of things happening in a spell. That does not make all of those possibilities RAW.

Something is happening in between (the boom), so there IS some sort of gap.

In between the boom? The boom is one thing or do you mean during the boom? Why must there be something happening during the boom? That still doesn’t seem to have anything to do with a teleport time gap.

The possibility is open in ALL teleportation spells, since they ONLY say that it takes "an instant", not zero time. But the suspicion is higher with thunder step because something DOES happen, the boom.

The entire spell happens instantaneously. It never says that the teleport part of the spell takes an instant.

Not exactly. First, immediately does not mean "zero time either". Second, "instantly" is not used, "instantaneous" is used with the definition of the rules, which means "in an instant". Not zero time.

Actually, “immediately” means “instantly” or “without an intervening time or space.”
“Instantly” is used in the only reference we have to how long Teleport lasts.

If the spell was meant to damage the caster if he did not go far enough, it would have mentioned that. A spell does what it says it does. In this case, it cuts both ways, you see.

The spell says “each creature” in range takes damage. The caster is a creature. This part is very clearly worded.