D&D (2024) If short rest abilities become Prof # tiimes per day?

[AnotherGuy]

HP? Exhaustion? How do you find those inadequate?

The exhaustion track is inadequate in that it is not integrated with your resources.
There is no rule for a caster or fighter pushing themselves further beyond their normal capabilities.

If HD are like inner reserves which you can use to 2nd wind, then surely that should tie to your exhaustion track. If you are exhausted your HD should drop to 0. And if they are providing you a 2nd wind of sorts why can you not expend them to cast spells or perform combat maneuvers...etc

The integration of it all is lacking and that lazy design bleeds then into the rest mechanic.
You'd think after 40+ years they'd have done something about it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Just to relate experience I play a Monk on a Westmarches server and with 3 encounters per short rest or no short rest it’s impossible to keep up with classes that can use Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert and Polearm Master well because those abilities are just always on while my Ki runs out after one fight at level 5 if I’m trying to keep up with the contribution they’re making. Then I just become a squishy martial that can make an extra scimitar strength unarmed attack as a bonus action and move 10ft further. It is hard to convince long rest based classes to even take a short rest because they’re not sweating at that point cause they are fueling of this set of feats instead of their resource limited class abilities. The only hope is usually that there is a Warlock or someone with a Warlock dip since their spells are considered respectable enough to warrant a short rest. No one is stopping for flurry of blows to recharge.

Yes, back one of the early 5e games I ran we had a warlock (great old/chain) a Wizard (necromaner) and a Monk (I think he was open hand) and 2 clerics (one multi into paladin) and we found that it didn't matter if we took an hour off after every fight or not, the monk just could not keep up after a while.

over the years we have had A LOT of warlocks, and even in sessions/in game days with few to no short rests they can hold up (although they of course do better the more short rests you have)

in the last campaign I PCed we had a Barbarian/Cleric a Druid and my Warlock (by time we hit 20 I had also taken 3 levels of sorcerer) and an NPC fighter/paliden and on a day with a lot of short rests I was the MVP (although the barbarian cleric could out damage me 9 out of 10 encounters that and taking hits was all he had on me on those days) on a day with 0 short rests I still out performed the fighter/pal and was on par with the other two.

 

[kapars]

Yes, back one of the early 5e games I ran we had a warlock (great old/chain) a Wizard (necromaner) and a Monk (I think he was open hand) and 2 clerics (one multi into paladin) and we found that it didn't matter if we took an hour off after every fight or not, the monk just could not keep up after a while.

over the years we have had A LOT of warlocks, and even in sessions/in game days with few to no short rests they can hold up (although they of course do better the more short rests you have)

in the last campaign I PCed we had a Barbarian/Cleric a Druid and my Warlock (by time we hit 20 I had also taken 3 levels of sorcerer) and an NPC fighter/paliden and on a day with a lot of short rests I was the MVP (although the barbarian cleric could out damage me 9 out of 10 encounters that and taking hits was all he had on me on those days) on a day with 0 short rests I still out performed the fighter/pal and was on par with the other two.

Then it sounds like the Monk abilities should be tuned so that the most powerful ones allow the Monk to replicate the effect of the Warlock spells at that level with 2-3 options for at-will abilities like the Warlock has with invocations. We clearly have two models for short rest based classes, one works well and the other struggles.

 

[payn]

I don't care what the rules end up being because no matter what they are... I'm going to find a better way to run them for myself and will house rule the new system in.

Needing the books to print exactly the rules I want for every single thing is a bane to happiness. Go into every book with the assumption that you are going to make the rules your own is what opens everything up and you lose this anchor around your neck that constantly wants to drag you down.

Playing RAW is dumb in my opinion. It's a decision merely there to keep a person constantly unhappy.

Sure, but isnt it nice when you dont have to rewrite the rules? This is a fine position one can have, but a very Oberoni answer to this discussion.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Then it sounds like the Monk abilities should be tuned so that the most powerful ones allow the Monk to replicate the effect of the Warlock spells at that level with 2-3 options for at-will abilities like the Warlock has with invocations. We clearly have two models for short rest based classes, one works well and the other struggles.

I think (and I know I get told I am wrong alot) most classes should work off the warlock frame...

2 subclasses 1 at 1st 1 at 3rd and mix and match creates variable builds
a group of powers/abilities you can pick to learn that you can use so many times per short rest (like there spells) that scale to level 9.
a group of power/abilities you can always use that scale at 5/11/15/17 like there cantrips
AND
a list of special class spesfic mini feats that can add power/abilities to the above or enhance one you already have like there invocations
at higher levels give them more game breaking story altering power abilities they can pick 1 of every other level that are only useable 1/long rest like there 6th-9th level spells


I want monk and fighter and rogue rebuilt useing that idea at least

 

[Vaalingrade]

HP? Exhaustion? How do you find those inadequate?

The thing no one can a agree on what they even are and the Death Spiral?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The thing no one can a agree on what they even are and the Death Spiral?

it's simple... every time you take damage some portion is meat coming off... even when it is from a psychic blast... and you have broken bones and muscle pulls from damage but non of that meat coming off or bones breaking or pulls in muscles impeads you in anyway.

or so I have been told cause 'realism'

 

[Parmandur]

Then don't nova in the first encounter. Problem solved.

And provide narrative consequences, if needed.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Its exactly the same thing that 2e and 3.5 did. How is that not a new edition?

3.5 rewrote the entire system. It’s my least favorite edition of D&D , so I don’t recall details, but I’m fairly certain it changed general rules not just adjusting some classes, but it also had major revisions to several classes, not just tweaks to fix pain points, and it was presented as a new, replacement, edition, regardless of what wotc said in public about it.

Overall I think Essentials had the best model in D&D so far. If not for it being a half edition, ignoring the rest of the edition, and coming late: it would have made the best core for a system with a few Tweeks.

1. Define a core of 3-4 types of "powers" by time.
2. Give Power Types a designation. (Cantrips, Sneak attack, and Stances are At Will, Channel Divinity, Backstab, Power Strikes, and Challenges are Encounter. Spells and Prayers are "Daily"
3. Shift time constraints away from Offensive Ability to Health and Recovery and balance Powers to be used in One Encounter Day Burst, 10 Encounters Day Attrition, and Anything Between.
4. Give classes the powers that the majority of the community agrees on.
5. Allow groups to choose their own resting model knowing that warriors, rogues, priests, and mages can ALL nova or grind. A level 1 wizard can nova their 2 Spells, a level 1 fighter can nova their 3 Strikes, a level 1 monk can spend their 3 Ki, and a 1 level cleric can nova the 1 spell and 1 Channel Divinity for one big fight and it's all more or less balanced.

If you think essentials was anything more than a new set of options within an edition, I guess I can see why you’d also think that 2024 will see a “new/half edition.

 

[Undrave]

WotC sort of screwed up the terminology by insisting on making an Edition change something as utterly drastic as 2E > 3E, 3E > 4E, or 4E > 5E while pretending that 3.5 didn't "count" as a full Edition.

Or Essentials!