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D&D General On simulating things: what, why, and how?

OK, but I would argue that, if it is a sim in any meaningful sense, you could GO THROUGH IT with another person and they would have to agree that, modulus some things that might be elided or simplified, that the logic of what was produced was sound, and that the outputs are the logically consistent and expected outputs that match in some sense to real world results of carrying out the simulated activity/of the simulated system (say the economy of a town). I don't really think that things like skill checks to climb cliffs and the price table from the 5e PHB are going to do that. Certainly anyone who has climbing experience is likely to object to climb checks as matching with ANYTHING in reality (@Manbearcat being our go-to on this one). Likewise no one who has ever been in a retail business will agree that the market place in Fallcrest represents any touchpoint with reality at all beyond "there are goods and prices."

I guess about as far as we can go with this is that there's something of a subjective nature about it. So some people might agree that it seems kinda 'simulationistic' and other people might scoff at the notion because they're more knowledgeable about the subject in question.
If we have an athletics skill that measures character's athletic prowess, and we a have a DC for the climbing check that is based on how difficult to climb the surface is in the fictional world, and the odds of successfully climbing are based on these, then I would definitely say it is a simulation. What is being simulated is that some people are better climbers than others and that some surfaces are harder to climb than others. We can of course critique accuracy of said simulation, but that's another matter.
 

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So basically in your game things are just incoherent nondescriptive mush? Because that's what I am hearing. You cannot even answer super simple basic question about your world like roughly how large things are in even remotely coherent manner. How are people supposed to visualise a 120 feet dragon in a 50 feet room, occupying a 20 foot square? None of this makes nay sense. o_O


I have not abandoned anything. I have explained my position several times, I have been consistent from the get go. Please stop lying.
I'd point out that pretty close to ever fantasy genre movie ever made, and a good many written works, make no more sense than this. I watched that Godzilla movie the other day where Godzilla eats New York. The monster is like 5 different sizes! The director etc. clearly could care less about realism, when they want the monster to be HUGE its huge, when they want it to be smaller, it is, and then at one point it is absolutely gargantuan!

Its all 'story logic', and I would posit that this is all any of it has EVER been in RPGs, with that logic getting a plausibility filter on it in at least some cases, and otherwise just following genre logic, etc. Its no more remarkable than when Superman grabs the 747 by the nose and carries it away and sets it down (when the plane was going 600 MPH to start with!). Its just that way because it makes a fun story, there's nothing even slightly realistic about it, at all!
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
De Arte Assimulandi -- On the Craft of Representing the Unreal

Accepting the stated definition of "simulate," that is, "rules which give an impression within the mind of matching up with the actual physical or cognitive processes they describe," we have...


Why Simulate?

The superficial answer is extremely straightforward: because, all else being equal, successful simulation results in a smoother, more intuitive gameplay experience. The main problems with the superficial answer, though, are those two qualifiers: all else being equal and successful. Frequently, it is not the case that all else is equal; as noted in the OP, there are often wrinkles or difficulties induced by striving for virtual fidelity, ones which can even impede the overall goal, to make an enjoyable game product. Or the simulation may simply...just not work out very well (as, for example, almost every form of "grappling rules" tend to be--fiddly and complex without really conveying the feeling of being mano-a-mano.) So while this simple answer is straightforward, I find it quite lacking.

Digging deeper, a more fundamental answer is alluded to in the foregoing definition I gave: "an impression within the mind." Hence, we simulate because we want a certain kind of mental experience. Simulation is, in a very meaningful sense, not actually part of the rules themselves, as opposed to things like "balance" or "mechanics." Instead, it exists in the experience of some players, akin to the joy felt by some as they listen to certain kinds of music: the music itself is neither joyful nor unjoyful, instead it induces joy in (some of) those who hear it. But this leads inevitably to some of the problems with "simulation." Due to the inherent subjectivity, it is difficult at best for a system to strive for universally-recognized simulation. It's hard or even impossible to guarantee disparate folks will all get the same warm-fuzzy sim feels from a given structure. Instead, it requires everyone being on the same page, as others have said; rather than arising from rules, it arises from developing consensus....which means this motive is ultimately seeking something rather different from the things sought by the previous motive, to the point that it can even incorporate "action movie physics" and other openly unnatural things, muddying the waters.

There is, however, a final element to consider. Games, like all descriptive media, cannot express all facts with perfect completeness and fidelity. Necessarily, the game must be filtered through several lenses (GM bias, time constraints, the rules, and others), which means it can become difficult for new players to get into the game. This pedagogical angle is the final and, in my not so humble opinion, only truly generalized benefit of "simulation." Because simulation prizes consistency, naturalness, and similarity to things already "known" (I'll get back to those scare quotes in the next section), it's useful as a tool for enhancing the learning experience for new players who aren't comfortable just plowing ahead with the game's (necessary, unavoidable) abstractions. This pedagogical benefit comes with a useful corollary, in that if it is easy to teach, it is also easy to learn and, more importantly, strategize about. If you can reliably know how the world works, you can reliably do the things you intend to do, even if your efforts fall short of true success.

So, that's my three answers to "why": smoothness (all else being equal), a desire for (automatic, undiscussed) consensus experience, and teaching-value/thinking-value. Of the three, only the latter is comparatively free of serious caveats and (at least seeming) contradictions. Building off that, we can then ask...


Simulate How?

What techniques are useful to simulation? How can it be done better or worse? These are useful questions but finding answers can be tricky, as noted above with the complexities of the motive behind seeking it.

One of the simplest techniques is just artful silence. This is not, I should note, merely the act of not saying things, or at least the most successful versions of it are not that. Instead, it is the skillful process of telling the reader only what they need to know in order to form a picture in their own mind, allowing their imagination to do the heavy lifting without making it seem like the reader has to do any "work" along the way, because humans naturally visualize and embellish. In a sense, this technique is similar to techniques seen in horror fiction: often the unknown is scarier than the known, specifically because the imagination fills the unseen with all sorts of dreadful possibilities.

The main problem with this technique, and one of its key differences from horror, is that those glossed-over details might actually matter, at which point the lack of content becomes obvious and the reaped benefits erode rapidly. As a result, this technique is only really appropriate in fringe areas (where investigation is unlikely, and even if someone does go looking, they may accept that the simulation is simply imperfect), or as a supplement to some other technique which can carry the load should this one falter. That doesn't mean it isn't important; I would, in a certain sense, argue that this is the single most commonly used technique of simulation, because it requires little effort and, when it DOES work, it works very well. It's just a technique with serious weaknesses that are often overlooked.

A second technique of simulation is the metaphorical full-court press of thoroughly examining everything for its ludonarrative implications. Such exhaustive analysis has obvious benefits, being essentially the exact opposite of the previous technique, but it therefore suffers from exactly the problems the "artful silence" technique is meant to address. That is, realistically speaking, you can't actually examine everything. Your resources are bounded; the resources of all possible people who could ever play your game are (at least in principle) unbounded. But all-or-nothing versions of these techniques are not particularly fruitful for analysis. Instead, the technique of thoroughgoing ludonarrative consonance is best seen as one of judicious use of time, hearkening back to my statement earlier about "all else being equal"--that is, when all else is equal, putting in the time to analyze things in this sense can be very productive, even if your game isn't specifically intending to evoke simulation. The question becomes one of time spent for benefit gained: by dedicating your attention to answering questions that don't actually need answers in order to play, you may be taking away vital design time from other components.

But both of these techniques lie on essentially the same spectrum, that between "what is unsaid is like the real world" and "what is said is clear and known." There are other tools available for simulation. One is to leverage visual design and word choice to avoid hitches. This is actually an area where I think 3rd edition D&D, usually a poster child for heavy focus on (casual definition) "simulation," actually fell down pretty hard. Semantic overloading is a serious issue in 3e, particularly the word "level," which is used for an enormous variety of topics. Of course, the reverse problem can often arise in trying to avoid this issue: jargon usually takes time to adjust to, and the more specific you are with your terms, the greater your risk of jargon. 5e's attempt (IMO not very successful, but I'm a critic so that's not surprising) at "natural language" would seem to be at least the goal of this overall technique. Exploit the shared understandings people already have, thus evading the horns of the preceding dilemma, but taking on the risk that, well, natural language tends to be fuzzy and people don't always agree on what words mean.

This leads me to my last (though likely not the last) technique of simulation, what I refer to as "extensible frameworks." This differs from the previous option by attempting to resolve the dilemma rather than trying to evade it. With this approach, you define a set of flexible tools, which are not narrowly tailored to each individual situation, but rather employ a certain amount of abstraction so that a manageable, finite set of processes covers a nigh-infinite variety of possible situations. Hence, they are frameworks, i.e. not individual crunchy bits but processes applied through reason and interpretation to each situation, which are extensible, capable of being re-purposed to novel situations that weren't (or perhaps even couldn't have been) considered by the designers. But, naturally, this technique must pay some kind of price for this "have your cake and eat it too" situation, and that price is in what I mentioned earlier, "a certain amount of abstraction." In order to get extensible frameworks, you have to be willing to let a single distinct rule operate for similar but not identical situations, and conversely you (usually, though perhaps not always) have to be willing to allow that two very similar situations would not necessarily invoke identical rules. In other words, this method may fall down not by failing to address all the situations it needs to, but because players may find that it falls short of feeling like simulation.

Again, to summarize, the overall techniques I usually see employed in the discussion of (casually-defined) simulation are:
  • The artful application of silence, letting player imagination fill in plausible detail;
  • Exhaustively addressing every question the designers can think of, so a concrete answer exists;
  • Exploiting outside-of-game structures, knowledge, or patterns to bake in inherent plausibility;
  • Creating flexible, extensible framework rules, so every situation has a (partially abstracted) expression.

Simulate What?

Finally, we get to the question that, perhaps, most people actually want answered (because they already know they want to simulate, so "why" may not seem relevant, and they aren't designing a system, so the specific tools or techniques may not seem relevant either.) What things should be simulated? Are there aspects of the game that should not be addressed this way? Aspects that should always be so? Etc. As with the preceding answers, there are a lot of value judgments involved here, but we can at least be descriptive about common components people expect to see invoke simulation (as casually defined). Perhaps more importantly, we can also consider ways in which these desires can be fulfilled better or worse, both in terms of successfully simulating, and in terms of providing an overall desirable gameplay experience.

As demonstrated by this very thread, one of the most significant areas that fans of simulation look for it is what I'll call "physical capacities." That is, answers to the question, "What can a person do?" This is important for a lot of folks because it's actually likely to be relevant. Many really basic things simply go below the level of notice of the rules, e.g. walls are walls, you can't just walk through them. But most of the time, the capacities of a player's character matter because it sets the scope and possibilities they should be thinking about while playing. Even in games that are pretty open about not being simulation-focused, there's usually some attention paid to this particular application of simulation. One of the major downsides of being particularly focused on simulation in this area, however, is that it has a rather serious risk of shortchanging specific archetypes, because things that are blatantly supernatural get a near-absolute carte blanche to be whatever they like because magic is not observed IRL and thus cannot be "simulated," while physically throwing objects or swinging weapons is observed IRL and thus must be simulated within the limits of physical reality. Others have already touched (quite thoroughly) on the SERIOUS game design issues that arise from this, so I will simply leave it at "this whole area is both highly desired by some people and highly controversial to others."

A second area of emphasis for simulation is the degree of consistency across similar things. E.g., someone who prioritizes simulation (as casually defined) is likely to be annoyed or even thrown out of their desired mental experience of the game if things they consider to be meaningfully "the same" are represented with different mechanics. One of the most common requests on this front is that opponent creatures run by the DM should use identical rules to what the players use: e.g., if a bugbear is an assassin, then it should have a class level in the Rogue class, it should have the Assassin subclass, and it should have all attendant features and characteristics belonging to a player character of its level. This form of simulation also has its issues, some similar to the previous, others new (like the difficulty of balancing player characters who are supposed to go all day, every day, and opponents who usually only get one fight at a time, and even if they survive that fight, a second fight is usually much, much later.) It's not hard to understand why people would want this overall concept though: if you know how your character works, then you can easily and intuitively understand how opponents work if they're "the same" as you. This consistency simplifies certain kinds of thinking about yourself, other creatures, and the fictional world, as I noted in the first section.

A further space within the game where simulation is often sought out by fans thereof is, in a certain sense, the reverse of the previous: that is, things that are meaningfully different from one another conceptually should be meaningfully different from one another mechanically, and vice-versa. This is where you get arguments like removing or changing the 5e trident weapon, given that in all ways related to being a weapon it is completely identical to a spear, and its only differences are that it costs noticeably more, it is noticeably heavier, and it requires greater training (it is a martial weapon rather than a simple weapon.) Situations like this, where you have something which seems to be a distinct item solely to be a distinct item, with no in-world value or merit to existing as an independent entity, tend to rub sim fans the wrong way. This is an area where thoroughness is actually the most useful technique, because a weapon list is necessarily finite, and thus you only need to make finitely many comparisons to ensure that there's always some use case for a given weapon or armor etc.

Some fans will speak in mechanical terms about another area where they'd like the rules to simulate (as casually defined) as much as possible, usually referencing "Skill DCs" or the like. One of the ways to help build up a world that feels consistent and experientially "real" is to make sure that physical objects behave in consistent ways if made from the same material. This frequently manifests in the form of skill difficulty classes (DCs) for stuff like picking locks, sneaking past guards, deceiving an average person, forging a document, etc. Physically-rooted demonstrations of skill, more or less. Even though the request is usually made in mechanical terms, it's pretty clear that the real reason for it is to ensure that the world feels like it is made of things, rather than feeling like it is a loose representation of things. And, in general, this is one of the aspects of simulation I can't really argue with; it's much "closer to the metal" as it were, and thus rather appropriate for such considerations.

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There. Finally done with this monster of a post. RL threw me a curveball that meant I've been...not really able to focus on it nearly as much as I intended originally. I know it's not directly related to most of the current conversation, but it was my hope to get out this analysis on the three fundamental questions on sim (why, how, and what.) The hope being, with such analysis on the table, we could start talking about things I overlooked, or foibles in the methods and ways of dealing with them, or areas that may have been neglected even in very sim-centric games.
 

Citation needed. Where does it list the physical sizes of the dragons? Also, Gargantuan is 20x20 or larger, so you can indeed give creature a 80x80 square or whatever if you want to describe them as that big.

o Reign of Steel dragons are a good model for D&D dragons because you say so. Because you've established this, it follows that fighters affecting dragons makes no sense.

You really don't see the self-justified circular logic here? :hmm:

This is the D&D arc of Dragons starting with Smaug from LotR who, so far as I know is the inspiration for D&D Ancient Red Wyrms:

LotR Smaug = Kaiju

Early/mid 1e + B/E/C sets + RC = Adult Dragons limit

Late 1e (FR Greybox) adds Venerable and Great Wyrms with significantly increased size and HD and HP per level and powers = Kaiju

M/I Set = Dragon Rulers and The Great Dragon. Kaiju w/ almost 3 x prior HD and massively increased movement rate of B/E/C Dragons

AD&D 2e = APEX Kaiju. This is the omega of giant Dragons. Laughably massive.

3.x = Kaiju (I gave their dimensions upthread).

4e = Kaiju (I gave their dimensions upthread).

5e = Who the eff knows but with the artwork and FR scaling for Klauth that clearly shows Kaiju is in play. Of note, D&D 4e Ancient Wyrms were also Gargantuan on the battlegrid (just like 5e) and I gave their dimensions as per the 4e Draconomicon above. Again:

Wingspan: 100 ft (31 m)
Length (head to the tail): 88 ft (27 m)
Height (ground to top of shoulder): 18 ft (6 m)
Weight: 165000 lbs (83 tons).
 
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NotAYakk

Legend
I want verisimilitude, surprise, and the ability for PCs to impact events in ways that (at in retrospect) make sense.

I believe that simulation is a joke, however. Any kind of complex situation is going to be far more complex than any mere human, set of tables, or similar could simulate with faithfulness. Any such simulation is a lie; a facade, that at best can convince the DM they are "simulating".

So what I want out of mechanics for "simulation" is for things to make sense, scale-wise. I want plenty of Chaos.

For example, suppose we had an exponential empire simulator mechanic in the game. So you have two empires, one with power 10^7 and the other with power 10^9. They collide.

The simulation mechanic might give a chance for the 10^7 empire to destroy the 10^9 one, despite it being literally 100x smaller. And the mechanics might say how it did so (military, political, revolution, whatever). But it cannot, reasonably, give me a the steps this happen.

I want the simulation to provide both preliminary and eventual end steps, and the possibility of derailing it.

I want my simulation mechanics to provide story hooks.
 

Yeah, and they were, if anything, even worse in OD&D. Like I said, you had to be able to close up if you were meleeing a target or within range with your bow, and you kind of wanted to know where the hell everyone was when the dragon breath or fireball went off, but other than that there was no real discussion of facing or flanking or cover.

Even then remembering where everyone was when there was a scattered battlefield was impossible for me without some kind of diagram; it might work in a dungeon because there were few opponents usually and limited number of points of contact, but even then it wasn't reliable.

I accept that other people manage to keep all that in their heads. I'm not them.
I'm 100% on your side man. I never did ToTM, except a few times when we couldn't set up a table to play on. So, we worked out something using bits and pieces of the D&D and AD&D rules sets that was workable, and frankly probably pretty close to what Gary did or at least intended when he wrote the DMG.
 

So your game world mimics the real world, acts like the real world unless there's magic? That's almost as if it were ... what's the word I'm looking for ... a simulation of the real world. Not all, of course, the real world doesn't have magic.

If y'all want to use some definition of simulation that is not required for many, if not most, simulations, feel free. I just disagree. It's also kind of a pointless academic argument.
Yeah, I don't think my world DOES mimic the real world, except in some ways that are relevant only to portraying action hero fantasy. I think in all other ways, like say how the economic aspects of a town are portrayed when they come up, it is wildly inaccurate and simple provides a mechanism by which the PCs can fill up their inventory or whatever. Its purely gamist to be honest.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
So Reign of Steel dragons are a good model for D&D dragons because you say so.
Um, <checks notes>, no? Reign of Fire is a more realistic depiction of D&D dragons as D&D presents them in the fiction, than D&D game rules are. And that's fine. I'm not championing RoF as the epitome and model for all dragonkind, I'm saying D&D is so backasswards on simulating this (going with the OP definition of feeling kinda like it could happen in the real world) that RoF is doing the better job of it. That job can be terrible and still win.

I mean, you really seem stuck on getting something you can mock me for instead of dealing with what I'm saying. That's an interesting approach.
Because you've established this, it follows that fighters affecting dragons makes no sense.
Oh, no, I started by looking at fighters affecting dragons being kinda weird stuff if we look at what a dragon is as the game presents it and even kinda squint at realism along the way. I mean, even if you're saying "I want a dragon martini, vodka, olive, only look at the vermouth, sorry, I mean realism, and give me something" then D&D dragons vs fighters is less believable than Reign of Fire. Does that solve it for you?

I mean, the fighter isn't blocking anything the dragon does if we're even glancing at simulation. Can't block something that weighs tons and is coming like a pro-baseball fastball at your head. You have to dodge. Cool, but that supposes a level of athletic ability that surpasses anything the fighter can do outside of a fight. So, then, no. But now how to we explain what's happening in a consistent way? We don't, consistency gets ignored because dragons just do not make sense, and we narrate the fighter barely getting out of the way or even blocking (ha!) a blow or two because that tells a fun story about what the game is telling us. It has nothing to do with simulation. Reign of Fire, on the other hand, tried because they at least lampshaded the dragons as being so tough that only big guns could take them out, but the widespread devastation (they didn't go after the military, they went after crops and people and were all over the world in numbers) made sure that any good the military might do was quickly lost in global starvation. I mean, have you watched the movie?
You really don't see the self-justified circular logic here? :hmm:
No, because I'm not making the arguments you're saying I'm making. I hope the above is clearer.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
If we have an athletics skill that measures character's athletic prowess, and we a have a DC for the climbing check that is based on how difficult to climb the surface is in the fictional world, and the odds of successfully climbing are based on these, then I would definitely say it is a simulation. What is being simulated is that some people are better climbers than others and that some surfaces are harder to climb than others. We can of course critique accuracy of said simulation, but that's another matter.
This then defines 'simulation' as any game mechanic. Pick a game, it's simulation, we just need to haggle over the price.
 


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