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D&D General Why Do People Hate Gnomes?

I also think it is a shame that if someone doesn't think the current iteration of the concept is 100% perfect it gets construed as "hate."

I don't "hate" gnomes, I really like the sort of characters gnomes often are. But I still don't think they're distinct enough from halflings. I would prefer them either to be merged or made more distinct. Currently they're super similar.
I'm confused. This thread is about why so many people hate gnomes.

I know from previous interactions with you that you don't hate gnomes. Has anyone in this thread (including me) accused you of hating gnomes? And this thread isn't about accusing someone of hating gnomes . . . it's about speculating why so many people do hate them, or people that do hate them explaining why. I would assume just by the title of the thread that anyone that posts here specifically what they don't like about gnomes hates them. Because, you know, that's the whole point.
 

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I'm confused. This thread is about why so many people hate gnomes.

I know from previous interactions with you that you don't hate gnomes. Has anyone in this thread (including me) accused you of hating gnomes? And this thread isn't about accusing someone of hating gnomes . . . it's about speculating why so many people do hate them, or people that do hate them explaining why. I would assume just by the title of the thread that anyone that posts here specifically what they don't like about gnomes hates them. Because, you know, that's the whole point.
I mean I don't think the thread is as constructively named as it could be. Sure, some people are just repeating the memey "gnome hate" jokes, but it might be useful to ponder what are the things people are dissatisfied with gnomes and how they could be improved.

Also, there are two current threads running regarding this topic, so I might be confused about what conversation is happening where... 🤷
 

I'm confused. This thread is about why so many people hate gnomes.

I know from previous interactions with you that you don't hate gnomes. Has anyone in this thread (including me) accused you of hating gnomes? And this thread isn't about accusing someone of hating gnomes . . . it's about speculating why so many people do hate them, or people that do hate them explaining why. I would assume just by the title of the thread that anyone that posts here specifically what they don't like about gnomes hates them. Because, you know, that's the whole point.

Okay, how's this-

1. Most people understand gnomes from two sources- first, garden gnomes. Garden gnomes are kind of a meme-able pop culture joke. Second? Underwear gnomes (either the original South Park episode or the internet memes with "3. PROFIT!!!!"). So there is already this "joke-y" version of gnomes floating around.

2. It's acceptable to hate on gnomes ... provided that it's not a real and serious hate. This can be confusing for some, but I will simplify- there are people that actually HATE (as in ... really hate) the idea of tieflings, or Dragonborn, or whatever. That type of humor is ... well, mean.

3. Finally, Gnomes are the Nickleback of D&D. Never made it as a wise man It's culturally acceptable to hate on gnomes. I couldn't cut it as a poor man stealing Is it because gnomes are also from the fictional country of Canada Tired of livin' like a blind man I don't think so. I'm sick of sight without a sense of feeling But it's totally fine to hate on Nickelback, while realizing that they make so very much money. And this is how you remind me Money? So is this really the gnomes master plan? Is this how they PROFIT!!!!

Or did I just write a very long post to get that song stuck in your head?

This is how you remind me of what I really am
This is how you remind me of what I really am


Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
 

I mean I don't think the thread is as constructively named as it could be. Sure, some people are just repeating the memey "gnome hate" jokes, but it might be useful to ponder what are the things people are dissatisfied with gnomes and how they could be improved.

Also, there are two current threads running regarding this topic, so I might be confused about what conversation is happening where... 🤷
The other thread is about what the unifying theme of Gnomes is, which is probably a better place for specific criticisms of the race (which I have plenty of my own of, too, and I posted some of them in that thread).

This thread was more about a specific phenomenon, which is the strange hatred of them that I've seen on the internet. Not just of people making jokes mocking them (though that was certainly a part of it), but also why people generally on this site seem to hate them. Because in the two years I've been active on this site, I've seen a lot of people saying that they hate gnomes or that they're among their least favorite D&D races.

The thread is about trying to understand why people hate them, because I've seen a lot of people hating on them here and was confused because they're one of my favorite playable races. Not about thoughtful critique about them, which I'm fine with, this thread just isn't really the place to do it. (If such a thread existed, I certainly would give my viewpoint.)
 


No Unique doesn't. A big problem gnomes have is that their niches are neither conflicting nor contrasting but are basically unique.

Halflings drift more easily than gnomes because what they are is something other than a grab bag of tropes thrown together without thematic coherence. And that is why as of 2017 they were more popular than gnomes in every single class except wizard, druid, and by the thinnest of margins, warlocks.
Are we really sure that isn't because Halflings have what is by and away one of the most powerful traits in Lucky? Are people rolling halflings because they like Halflings, or are they rolling halflings because Lucky is one of the most powerful skills in the game?

Meanwhile gnomes are hodgepodged into their role of "like halflings but with random subrace-determined magic". Which is why halflings are more popular in every class except the ones where the random magic hits the class on the nail and, by the narrowest margin, warlocks.

Halflings have an identity. Gnomes have gimmicks.
Look, if Gnomes are anything, its "Like elves but small" or "Like dwarves but magical". Dwarves and Elves are the go-tos when it comes to Gnomes, not Halflings. Halflings are agile and either sneak-thieves or hobbits, with no inbetween

The Halfling identity has been "Hey, remember this popular book? We're just doing that and adding nothing (Except Eberron and Athas who did a complete 180 from how Halflings were because they wanted to do something, anything with them other than just hobbits again, and even Eberron couldn't escape that entirely)

There are reasons elves get complained about.
But you can't deny their three main sub-races are each a visually and stylistically unique one with its own niche. You'd never confuse a drow for a high elf, or a wood elf for a drow.

It has always only been burrowing mammals.
Races of Faerun, Forest Gnomes get Speak with Animals as a SLA. No restrictions on size or type, just flat Speak with Animals.

Just halflings with a completely different gimmick from being able to talk to animals. And this is why gnomes as a race in 5e are a failure. The ones who play Dr Doolittle are basically entirely unrelated to the fiddlers.

If you wanted a coherent theme between the two rather than to make a grab bag of unrelated tropes and pass it off as a race you'd give the rock/tinker gnomes psychometry and as such able to listen to objects. Forest gnomes communicate with animals, rock gnomes with objects. Very different uses coming from the same place.
The only loose connecting thread between the types of elves is "Good at magic", "Agile" and "Lives a long time". The ones who worship demons underground are basically entirely unrelated to the forest dwellers.

When the go to example on how to make a varied group of subraces that have stood the test of time and keep coming back barely has thematic consistency, is it really a requirement for it to be a thing? Do we want subraces to be distinct, or basically identical? I'd argue we want distinct. Remember, no one cared about Githzerai when they were just "Githyanki but neutral", it wasn't until Planescape: Torment came along and gave them their own thing that they came into the limelight

And not a thing of value is lost. Because gnomes are not a race, they are tropes shoehorned into a race that is only there because it has been there from the start and changes every edition from one unpopular choice to another, never really finding an identity between gnomes and dwarves.
Every race except humans in this game is tropes. And let's not get started on dwarves because as far as tropes go, dwarves are just a trope. Folks always try to make elves different, but dwarves are always just the same "Grumpy bearded Scotsman" with no changes to that one single worn trope, ever. If we're judging gnomes for being a collection of tropes, what should that say about races who never change from one singular identity, or are too tied to other stuff?

We gain less space taken up and the ability to include e.g. goblins. What do we gain by keeping them? What do they actually do that halflings or goblins don't?
A small Fey race that hits those niches the halfling can't, because Halflings are 'the small everyman' per everyone's descriptor of them and too tied to Tolkein to go into little people mythology that elves have left behind, and gnomes embrace. Frankly they should embrace it more, but I've had this "D&D didn't touch fey stuff enough until 4E and suffered for it" theory going for years

Indeed. They have substance. They leave pure gimmickry to the gnomes. Of course you could mix the two by making gnomes halfling subraces.
Their substance is "They're all farmers and like cushy lives". That was.... Basically half the backstory of my fire genasi (The other half is that he's adopeted, doesn't know who his actual parents were and has horrid nightmares of someone trying to escape from the plane of fire, but that's probably fine, probably). Is that really something we can say isn't a gimmick? Because, frankly, its sounding like Halflings have only ever had one gimmick and that gimmick is "You're a hobbit from Middle Earth"

See, I'd argue that gnomes are actually the anti-halfling. Halflings are the everyman of everymen. Even among other races, they're the ones expected to be the most down to earth, eternally tied to the portrayal of Hobbits of Lord of the Rings. They're the people who just go on an adventure before retiring after the fact, once their blade and soul is stained enough with blood. They are mundane, that's the power of halflings. They are as mundane as possible in this magical world.

Gnomes, on the other hand, are the opposite of this. Even the most basic of them comes from people who talk to animals on the regular, invent spectacular machines, or live and thrive in one of the most hostile places in existence. They've all of the magic elves do, but without the aloofness that comes with their taller cousins. They are the opposite of mundane, seeped in magic, mystery, a stranger world. They embrace the wilder side of it.

Merging the two together is a disservice to both of their identities. You're determining that the halfling's mundanity should be destroyed, or the gnome's embrace of the other side.

Is there really much support to keep the game's least popular core race?
Just as something has to be the most popular, by definition, something must be the least popular. Removing something just results in something else getting that label, like Half-Orcs Plus, well, by that theory.... We'd have removed other stuff long ago. Gnomes were infamous back in 3E for being able to easily get Shadowcaster, so going off that theory, I'd say Halflings would have been more chopped due to how 3E handled things.

And there's nothing to lose here. This is the problem.
Except just, pissing off the people who do like gnomes. Like, let's not forget how absolutely vicious the Warlord debates get here. Sure, gnomes aren't the most popular, but they've a dedicated fanbase who will come out

Don't forget, there's plenty of people decrying the 5E decision to make Gnolls unplayable and Designated Evil Race. And gnolls are far worse than gnomes in identity issues. If random hyena mooks get that attention, then what would a race that's been its own for the vast majority of the game's lifecycle going to do? Plus see also the pushback on Shadar'Kai becoming an elf subrace, despite Shadar'Kai starting as fey

Above gnomes.
Below gnomes nowerdays, based on more recent stuff I can find.
 

The other thread is about what the unifying theme of Gnomes is, which is probably a better place for specific criticisms of the race (which I have plenty of my own of, too, and I posted some of them in that thread).

This thread was more about a specific phenomenon, which is the strange hatred of them that I've seen on the internet. Not just of people making jokes mocking them (though that was certainly a part of it), but also why people generally on this site seem to hate them. Because in the two years I've been active on this site, I've seen a lot of people saying that they hate gnomes or that they're among their least favorite D&D races.

The thread is about trying to understand why people hate them, because I've seen a lot of people hating on them here and was confused because they're one of my favorite playable races. Not about thoughtful critique about them, which I'm fine with, this thread just isn't really the place to do it. (If such a thread existed, I certainly would give my viewpoint.)
I think the gnome hate is basically mostly just a meme at this point. It probably is at least partly fuelled by actual dissatisfaction people have with the gnomes though.
 
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I think the gnome hate is basically mostly just meme at this point. It probably is at least partly fuelled by actual dissatisfaction people have with the gnomes though.
I'm sure that's mostly it, but reading through this thread, there genuinely are quite a few people that hate gnomes. And I can understand most of the reasons (trust me, I hate Dragonlance's Tinker Gnomes and how they've affected the hobby as much as the next guy. I don't like Dragonlance's races in general, especially the small ones). There have just been a few people posting reasons in this thread that I don't think make sense or are specific to gnomes (them not being in other pop culture/folklore, them only having one base personality, etc).

It is mostly a meme, and this thread was mostly trying to understand the source of that. If it's most likely Dragonlance's Tinker Gnomes, that's understandable. (Even though I'm kind of confused why people still hate newer versions of them that are quite different from Dragonlance's Tinker Gnomes.)
 


But a lot of people have tried to give specific reasons why they hate them (or why they think others hate them). Or they make ridiculous blanket statements ("It is impossible for two gnomes under the guidelines to have different personalities" or "Gnomes have literally no source material in the folklore/pop culture"). Which can all be easily disproven.
Apologies if my responses ruined anyone's blood pressure. If I sit back and think about it carefully, I don't truly hate gnomes any more than I hate any of the other Dwarf subraces.

"But I can prove that they aren't Dwarves!" someone might say, as if doing so would invalidate my opinion, and somehow improve my disposition. They would then present the Player's Handbook as evidence, the same PHB that I have already read, already understood, and already deemed insufficient to change my mind. But to my mind, if gnomes aren't dwarves--if they lose that connection to the game lore that I grew up with--they lose the only thing that connects them to the game in my mind. They leave the game entirely.
 

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