D&D (2024) Will we get 5 tiers of game in 5.5 insted of current 4?

[Micah Sweet]

Since 3rd edition was released, high level play has been about drastically increasing HP, more powerful spells, more magic items, etc. For the first 25-ish years of the game, the mechanical power of the characters did actually stop around 9th level. Higher level characters were assumed to have more impact on the campaign world, creating strongholds, ruling over empires, even ascending to godhood.
The contemporary system has made high level play less interesting in some ways - it's just more of what you've already been doing for the entire campaign.
But I don't think games back then or games today actually use any of the high level material anyway.
What would make groups use the game material? Well, I think most campaigns end due to the time spent and complexities of high level play.
I can't imagine a game where groups would ever use it that would still fit the power fantasy theme of D&D.

Good analysis. I prefer the old way, but it was never super-popular. On the other hand, running the same style all the way to 20 doesn't really work either.

 

[Helldritch]

I could have maybe talked about HP inflation (I am fully down for lower them) maybe even the getting different xp and having different charts but you already admitted you were comparing an 11th level fighter to a 12th level wizard (with 6th level spells)... but this one statement "Magic is magic" means we will neve see eye to eye, and there is no point trying.

a 7th level fighter should not be magic... but he should be a superhuman paragon. All classes should be balanced off having a similar level of versatilty and power... and you just will never see that.

And this is where I differ.
Magic should be terrifying.
Only the bold, at la Conan, should face it.
Magic takes time to master.
I am not a proponent of classes to be balanced. At least not by level. A wizard should have a harder time to level than the fighter and our fighter should not be as close hp wise as the wizard. Heck, the difference between a d6 and a d10 is only 2 points on average. At least, in 1ed, only martials could get that sweet +3 or more hp per level. In 5ed, I have seen wizard with more HP than their fighter... go figure!

And again, 5ed is great. Way better than its predecessors. But there are choices that should have been dropped. Class balance is a myth, an utopia that many entertains. Balance means only one thing. Blandness. Make the classes unbalanced but with different exp to level. Make it so that magic have a cost and all classes using magic must level at a slower pace. Martial will get their place not as the poor unlucky player forced to play the play the martial but will be a very good choice.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You two speak as if you have TEH TRVTH, the One True Way of high level gaming, or something. As if you know the market better than anyone else.

Needless to say, I don't buy it. I think you are rather focused on your own frustrated desires, and a little less on some of the limitations on high level gaming that aren't even about game design. But, you know, I could be wrong.

So, I hope you two get together, and create an OGL product that rewrites high level D&D, and it is a smash hit!

um.... did you iss the part you quoted where i litterally said I THINK... not I KNOW?!?!

I think you are rather focused on your own frustrated desires,

since you used the same words "I THINK" should this be labled as you "speak as if you have TEH TRVTH, the One True Way of "

cause again I didn't even try to hide it was all what I thought.

I don't know how to express to you that what I think may or may not be fact, but we can not prove either way and in order to talk about our opinions we need to express what we think...

So, I hope you two get together, and create an OGL product that rewrites high level D&D, and it is a smash hit!

tbh I don't think (not know not ultimate fact, think) that we agree on the answers even if we see a similar problem... so that most likely wont happen.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I disagree. TSR reserved high levels for kingdom-building and keeping high-level they felt should be in the game but largely out of reach for PCs. After 9th level or so, you're supposed to re-focus your efforts on the big picture, and leave the life of an adventurer behind for the most part. That idea wasn't popular so it was gradually dropped, leaving us with the high level mess we have now.

the problem with that is the party sort of where being pulled apart by their differing high-level world responsibilities, it is however not a bad idea as at a high level you can logically change how things get done in the kingdom or whatever, I would mix the stronghold gameplay with the Avengers save the world stuff to make high level even worth playing worst case going into a dungeon for a particular magic item is still on the table.

And this is where I differ.
Magic should be terrifying.
Only the bold, at la Conan, should face it.
Magic takes time to master.
I am not a proponent of classes to be balanced. At least not by level. A wizard should have a harder time to level than the fighter and our fighter should not be as close hp wise as the wizard. Heck, the difference between a d6 and a d10 is only 2 points on average. At least, in 1ed, only martials could get that sweet +3 or more hp per level. In 5ed, I have seen wizard with more HP than their fighter... go figure!

And again, 5ed is great. Way better than its predecessors. But there are choices that should have been dropped. Class balance is a myth, an utopia that many entertains. Balance means only one thing. Blandness. Make the classes unbalanced but with different exp to level. Make it so that magic have a cost and all classes using magic must level at a slower pace. Martial will get their place not as the poor unlucky player forced to play the play the martial but will be a very good choice.

your suggestion is not inherently bad but its times in dnd sailed away in 3e people do not like having classes level faster than each other, and most modern fantasy does not portray magic as dangerous as that it self evolved out of magic as something evil which outside of frow backs or survivers from older times is dead these days or at least draw backs that matter.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

And this is where I differ.
Magic should be terrifying.
Only the bold, at la Conan, should face it.
Magic takes time to master.
I am not a proponent of classes to be balanced.

and this is why we will not ever see eye to eye...

At least not by level. A wizard should have a harder time to level than the fighter and our fighter should not be as close hp wise as the wizard. Heck, the difference between a d6 and a d10 is only 2 points on average. At least, in 1ed, only martials could get that sweet +3 or more hp per level. In 5ed, I have seen wizard with more HP than their fighter... go figure!

I do agree with you on this though...
in my perfect world we would take the HD system of 5e and cut it down... give everyone 1d code lowerHP (so d4 wizard d8 fighter) give everyone 3HD at 1st level (maxed so 12hp wizard 24 fighter) and then only give additional HD at odd levels and take the 2e post level 10 numbers for even numbers... but No CON bonus to hp gained... so a 2nd level wizard and fighter would have 13 and 27 respectfully... then at level 3 variables start as wizards get 1d4 and fighter get 1d8 each. But I would keep the spending HD gives back HD+con mod hp (the healthier you are the faster you recover not the more damage you can take) and make more 4e style healing "Sppend a HD and get this bonus" and "Heal as if you spent a HD"

Class balance is a myth, an utopia that many entertains. Balance means only one thing. Blandness.

this is back to we just wont see eye to eye

 

[Stalker0]

I think the best approach is the Epic 6 type approach, just adapted for high levels.

At some point in the game (maybe 11th or 13th level somewhere in there) you stop gaining levels. But then you gain abilities (or feats or whatever) that you choose from a list to further upgrade your character.

We already have this with their epic abilities in the DMG, all they need to do is expand it. Further, they could classify them into buckets, mundane and various states of supernatural. This gives you the dial for players who want grounded high level fighters (like a Beowulf) vs cusp of supernatural warriors (Captain America) vs full superhero (Thor). Just pick abilities from the list you consider appropriate for your game.

 

[Horwath]

I think the best approach is the Epic 6 type approach, just adapted for high levels.

At some point in the game (maybe 11th or 13th level somewhere in there) you stop gaining levels. But then you gain abilities (or feats or whatever) that you choose from a list to further upgrade your character.

We already have this with their epic abilities in the DMG, all they need to do is expand it. Further, they could classify them into buckets, mundane and various states of supernatural. This gives you the dial for players who want grounded high level fighters (like a Beowulf) vs cusp of supernatural warriors (Captain America) vs full superhero (Thor). Just pick abilities from the list you consider appropriate for your game.

E6 was great for 3.5e as number there went totally crazy later on.

E9 would be great stop point for 5E if you want that.

single 5th level slot for casters, 3rd level spells for half casters, proficiency bonus of +4, most classes also get cool stuff at level 9.

 

[Stalker0]

E6 was great for 3.5e as number there went totally crazy later on.

E9 would be great stop point for 5E if you want that.

single 5th level slot for casters, 3rd level spells for half casters, proficiency bonus of +4, most classes also get cool stuff at level 9.

probably 10th then just because people like those nice round numbers.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think the best approach is the Epic 6 type approach, just adapted for high levels.

At some point in the game (maybe 11th or 13th level somewhere in there) you stop gaining levels. But then you gain abilities (or feats or whatever) that you choose from a list to further upgrade your character.

We already have this with their epic abilities in the DMG, all they need to do is expand it. Further, they could classify them into buckets, mundane and various states of supernatural. This gives you the dial for players who want grounded high level fighters (like a Beowulf) vs cusp of supernatural warriors (Captain America) vs full superhero (Thor). Just pick abilities from the list you consider appropriate for your game.

E6 was great for 3.5e as number there went totally crazy later on.

E9 would be great stop point for 5E if you want that.

single 5th level slot for casters, 3rd level spells for half casters, proficiency bonus of +4, most classes also get cool stuff at level 9.

Epic levels already kind of work that way now for 21+ you just get xp then a special epic boon and/or feat... I got a warllock up to having 3 or 4 of those epic boons once.

Taking that idea and moving it to 9, 10, or 11 may be for the best

((THIS IS ENTIRELY OPNION THE ONLY FACT IS WHAT HAPPENS OVER 20)

 

[Horwath]

probably 10th then just because people like those nice round numbers.

yeah.
10th level is also great. also lots of features that are nice.
But I would keep it at that. lvl11 goes into next tier with level 6 spells and for lots of classes if a jump in power.

after level 10, you gain an ASI(feat) or you can take a level in another class and get that class features and normal multiclass, but no raising in level or extra HPs and HDs.

Maybe you can get some extra health if you gain levels in a class with higher HD.
I.E. 10th level wizard advances in E10 version, and instead of ASI or feat, takes a level of fighter.
Gains features of a fighter as normal multiclass and 4 HPs as 1st level fighter has 10 HP vs wizard 6, and if taken more, every level gain 2 HP, difference from wizards 4 per level to fighters 6.