D&D 5E Is 5E Special

Whatever the designers later said, the public statements/interviews for what WW were doing with Revised, and indeed the actual books published for Revised showed very strong snobbery and elitist attitudes from the designers. Specifically that anyone who was playing oWoD games, particularly Vampire, as either somewhat "romantic" (i.e. "hot vampires in trouble" a la Anne Rice and lesser derivative writers), or as "superheroes with fangs" (aka "trenchcoats and katanas"), was Doing It Wrong and having Badwrongfun. It was both explained that Vampire was supposed to be a serious game of personal body-horror - and nothing else - and then the rules and lore were changed to ensure that was more the case (only partially successfully - you can't keep a good katana down, and people ignored a lot of the lore changes). A similar pattern repeated across the whole Revised line - it was an accident that Revised Mages were massively less powerful/cool - the last gasp of 2E's vibe was really "Tales of Magick: Dark Adventure", before Mage Revised a year or so later stomped all over that kind of world.

Yeah OG VtM certainly had its fare share, not to mention at the time I was trying to read the game rules and imagine what the game feelt like, show up to the game shop with an idea in your head... and everybody's character has a katana and a trenchcoat.

True story.
 

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Huh? Why would anyone need that many books for 5E? Maybe I'm a minimalist or something, but I think one of the the strengths of 5E is that players only need one book, maybe two. And DMs only need the adventure they are running and the Basic Rules.
Need may have been a strong word, but in order to have the rules for decoupling ability scores from race, the artificer, alternate features for some classes, popular alternate races, a few solid sub-classes, etc, you'd need several books. People who've been playing for years might have picked those up slowly over time, but a new player would be looking at making several purchases at once to get those popular options. So with 50AE, I believe they will incorporate some of those rules into the core as a starting point for new players.
 

I love how I went to great lengths to point out that it isn't the entire generation, merely rather more true of Gen-X than Millennials, and apparently that's "thinking the entire generation is bad". Well, I guess some people just aren't interested in listening to what's actually being said. To be clear, for the record, Gen-X is not "all bad". Or even "mostly bad". That's wild. It's just if you're talking "sneering nerds", there are like, 90% more "sneering nerds" per capita than Millennials. That still leaves plenty of Millennial ones, you're just less likely to actually bump into one, per capita.

(As an aside, there are so many more Millennials in the US population it might actually be even - 50m Gen-Xers vs 83m Millennials IIRC. With only 90% more per capita I think that makes them about the same in total number of "sneering nerds", no?)
To be fair to Gen-Xers, while I did have a lot of negative experiences playing back in the day as a younger gamer among adults, the few that did try and help, ironically the Shadowrunners, did make a difference bringing new folks into the hobby.
 

everybody's character has a katana and a trenchcoat.
To quote grandpa Simpson - "which was the style at the time"!
To be fair to Gen-Xers, while I did have a lot of negative experiences playing back in the day as a younger gamer among adults, the few that did try and help, ironically the Shadowrunners, did make a difference bringing new folks into the hobby.
Oh yeah, some did - I mean, my first post on the subject I pointed this out - the person who taught me D&D was Gen-X, a much older cousin.

And interesting you mention Shadowrun, it had a bizarrely friendly and open community, particularly online, compared to a lot of RPGs. Not sure what was going on there, but the real life Shadowland BBS was a pretty cool place back in like 1994.
 

I had not felt that part was relevant to my point. Your logic was stated as:

1. The default rules don't work (or at least not well)
2. An optional rule exists which works (or works better)
3. Therefore there is no problem with the rules

That is the Oberoni fallacy: asserting that because the rules can be changed to fix a problem, there is no problem. That fallacious conclusion is wrong. There is a problem. I omitted one sentence where, yes, you admit that there is in fact a problem and you would prefer it to go away. That omitted sentence does not affect your stated argument with regard to the rules as they currently exist. If anything, the omitted sentence is reinforcing the Oberoni fallacy here, because you straight-up admit there's a problem while denying there is a problem!


Because that's exactly what the fallacy is! It is saying that because the problem can be houseruled, it isn't a problem. That is a straight fallacy, or worse, a legit self-contradictory assertion.


Uh...no? That is simply false. I have played in absolutely RAW games that were perfectly cromulent experiences because the game system was actually well-designed to begin with.

In 4E you had strict guidelines to follow. You don't have that in 5E, you have a lot of flexibility to run the kind of game you want. So if one style doesn't work for you, switch things up a bit. A lot of people use the base rules and are fine with it. For others, they want a different pace or a bit of control. If you have a problem with the default you have alternate rules to use. You didn't have that option with 4E.

I think having flexibility and options to make the game your own is a good thing, one of the best aspects of 5E. They aren't trying to lock down the game in immovable concrete.
 

In 4E you had strict guidelines to follow. You don't have that in 5E, you have a lot of flexibility to run the kind of game you want. So if one style doesn't work for you, switch things up a bit. A lot of people use the base rules and are fine with it. For others, they want a different pace or a bit of control. If you have a problem with the default you have alternate rules to use. You didn't have that option with 4E.

I think having flexibility and options to make the game your own is a good thing, one of the best aspects of 5E. They aren't trying to lock down the game in immovable concrete.
Right, rulings over rules is a sort of embrace of the oberoni fallacy. I would argue for 5E (and rulings over rules systems) its not a fallacy because its intended design. You can certainly not dig that, but its part of how its intended to work.
 

In 4E you had strict guidelines to follow. You don't have that in 5E, you have a lot of flexibility to run the kind of game you want. So if one style doesn't work for you, switch things up a bit. A lot of people use the base rules and are fine with it. For others, they want a different pace or a bit of control. If you have a problem with the default you have alternate rules to use. You didn't have that option with 4E.

I think having flexibility and options to make the game your own is a good thing, one of the best aspects of 5E. They aren't trying to lock down the game in immovable concrete.
I agree but admit to some desire for clarity in a few cases. For example, I wish stealth was a little more locked down…

Then again, I played AD&D! 😏 with theater of the mind much of the time!

In this case, I suppose it’s on us to make a ruling or just spitball it which we do and the game moves on…
 

I had not felt that part was relevant to my point. Your logic was stated as:

1. The default rules don't work (or at least not well)
2. An optional rule exists which works (or works better)
3. Therefore there is no problem with the rules

That is the Oberoni fallacy: asserting that because the rules can be changed to fix a problem, there is no problem. That fallacious conclusion is wrong. There is a problem. I omitted one sentence where, yes, you admit that there is in fact a problem and you would prefer it to go away. That omitted sentence does not affect your stated argument with regard to the rules as they currently exist. If anything, the omitted sentence is reinforcing the Oberoni fallacy here, because you straight-up admit there's a problem while denying there is a problem!


Because that's exactly what the fallacy is! It is saying that because the problem can be houseruled, it isn't a problem. That is a straight fallacy, or worse, a legit self-contradictory assertion.


Uh...no? That is simply false. I have played in absolutely RAW games that were perfectly cromulent experiences because the game system was actually well-designed to begin with.

Ahm yes. Again. Fallacy. Just because it works for you, it does not necessarily work for everyone.

Also. Still misrepresenting what I said.
 
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I'm going to let others debate which editions have good CR or party level predictability or if DMG alternate rest recharge rules are a fallacy, I don't really see how those relate to the OP. But here I think I see something interesting where I have some observations to make, specifically towards new people adopting the game --

Putting down my own thoughts before I read other responses that might influence them...
I think "special" is a semi-loaded word.
I don't think any other edition of the game that we've seen previously would have performed so well in the broad marketplace. I think 2e and earlier the designs are kind of clunky, as you'd expect of games from early in the invention of game design. 3e and 4e put so much force to design that they come up a bit too crunch/complicated to grab so many folks who aren't already dedicated to the game.
Mind you, that doesn't make 5e a better game than others in some overall sense - that's the loaded nature of "special". 5e gets people to play, and that is awesome. It is not the only awesome thing a game can do, though.
2e and earlier certainly had a bunch of weirdness. Most or all all had a bunch of arcane unclear parts and obtuse wording and a lot of what looks like complexity in search of meaning (ex. why am I reading along an attribute table row which has different methods of resolving bending bars/lifting gates and opening stuck doors?). This is the kind of thing that, while not prohibitive to most people of most levels of ability, can easily be inhibitive -- as in, this looks like a whole lot of thrashing about without an obvious payoff (especially if you're also starting out at level one when things are most lethal and you're learning by trial and errordeath that you shouldn't touch the green slime, etc.) and a whole bunch of people who were exposed to the game just didn't get over the hump that moved things from burden to fun and thus didn't take it up/stick with it. That was my experience growing up in the TSR-era -- there were a lot of friends, acquaintances, and schoolmates who ought to have fit the target interest group who tried it, didn't enjoy it, and stopped playing.

BX and the BEC portions of BECMI (as we've seen in recent threads, the part people actually bought) are, arguably, relatively simple. They still have different xp to level for each class, the saving throw table, etc., but the fundamental play loop was relatively straightforward attributes; combat using a chart, but once you add attribute modifiers and magic item pluses to the attack matrix, then things only change when you level or switch weapons; a more straightforward initiative system, and so on. And those were the ones that I saw the most uptake (at least briefly) from these potential players. Case in point, one kid in my main group had a sister who joined for a summer in the middle school era -- We put the modified attack matrixes on the sheets so there was only one place she had to look for combat ability, explained spell memorization, and she could play the character of anyone who couldn't make it that day. However, even those two version are married to a bunch of notions like Tolkien-like races* and their role-restrictions, or just the whole low-level system predicated on dungeon crawling through deathtraps for loot**.
*At a time when we all knew of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, but it was a long time before the Jackson movies and we weren't clear on why they took precedence over the Chronicles of Prydain and thus didn't know why dwarves shouldn't be able to cast magic like Doli
**Which is fine, if that's what you already wanted to be doing. To someone still on the fence about D&D in the first place, this was a second sell you had to make at the same time.

Then WotC got TSR, and... well, in some ways the games got simplified and some cruft was removed. Some form of central general resolution mechanic was included, the games acknowledged that you might not want to be dungeon-delving at any given level. At the same time, there are feats. There is multi-classing*. Your attributes change throughout the game. There is a notion of building your character out of parts that requires a level of commitment and investment. Your AC can change based on what you are facing. It's obvious people have strongly held and contradictory opinions about which of 3e, 4e, PF1, and Pf2 are most accessible and why, but for me, all of them look like really good options for someone's second RPG they ever learn (or at least one where there is a higher hurdle to get a potential gamer interested in getting past the learning curve, such that a better sell is needed). Certainly there are people like Darjr's son who started with 3e, but I'm guessing he had a bunch of like-minded friends already doing it (and if they didn't as well, that would be one less thing they would be doing together), and/or possibly some more experienced bigger kids/helpful adults such as the Shadowrunners who helped Art Waring and his friends get into the game. At the very least, I suspect that there were a lot of kids like Darjr's son that didn't get past the 'why am I doing this/when is the fun bit?' stage and thus didn't stay with the game.
*not that there wasn't in TSR-era, but it was pretty well separated as a extraneous option you didn't have to learn if you didn't want to.

That, I think, is where 5e has helped, it is just enough step back towards BX/BECMI (minus saves vs wands/staffs/rods and forced aesthetics and quick succession low-level deaths) in specific types of simpleness that allow the casuals or lookyloos or potential recruits or however you want to look at it in the door and staying long enough to listen to the full elevator pitch, try for a bit (and have fun doing so), and stick it out. I think having that, now, in a post- "everyone has seen LotR, most people know what a Game of Thrones is, many watch anime, the MCU exists, it's hard to argue that nerd culture isn't mainstream culture" -era is something special and I think it has helped with the games' current rise well and above what Stranger Things and Critical Role and such have done for it. Is it unique/could there not have been another version which would have done similarly well? Certainly not. But I do think that there were specific parts of 5e that were right-place/right-time/right-application.
 


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