D&D 5E Is 5E Special

[Warpiglet-7]

5E is old enough to be aging out as shocking as that may seem. Cycles usually start out neutral to positive (sry 4E) and build towards neutral negative. It takes time to grok a system, to experience it, and find out what you like. Systems are hugely complex, but folks tend to hyper focus on a few things. It's like a paper cut or a sliver at first its sharp, and then you deal. Though, eventually it starts to ache. Then, you get folks jumping ship and saying the whole game is garbage and well y'all know the drill. While this sentiment might have its fans, I don't think its an existential threat to 5E.

A lot of truth here.

I think Gygax said you don’t really need rules (it’s the big lie!) I will respectfully disagree there but agree with the sentiment.

I think rules have a purpose but many things that grate on some are not things I tend to focus on. If it’s balance—I am not worried about it if I am having fun. Or whatever. Going back to 1e.

The rub for me is usually more general—-is it hard to run? Too much hassle?

Is it restrictive to rhe point of few options?

That is where I have a problem or avoid a system. 3.5 and 4e were not my total favorites but if I was playing with a group that got into character and had good game ethics, bet I could have fun.

One thing I don’t like about the modern age in gaming is how things can be broken down by the hive mind via the internet. It used to take ages to “solve” boardgames or see weaknesses in rpgs due the small samples. Not so anymore.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

5E is old enough to be aging out as shocking as that may seem.

god I hope you are right because there are major system issues I want addressed in 6e

 

[payn]

god I hope you are right because there are major system issues I want addressed in 6e

I wouldn't hold my breath for a 4E conversion. Just sayin.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I wouldn't hold my breath for a 4E conversion. Just sayin.

well my hope is 4e without the stupid HP inflation with some of the 5e improvements (concentration, advantage and disadvantage)

 

[payn]

well my hope is 4e without the stupid HP inflation with some of the 5e improvements (concentration, advantage and disadvantage)

Sounds like PF2.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That is not my experience at all. 5E isn't coded in a way that ensures damage output is consistent across parties because there is too much variation and too many unintended consequences.

I’ve not seen that in play or even read any detailed analysis that showed that. Can you give examples?

They flattened the math behind damage by level but then failed to lock the characters into, so instead of becoming a predictable standard it became a cap. And since 5E uses hit points as the primary descriptor of monster CR, unpredictable damage output throws the CR system out. It's a mess. You eventually get a feel for it, but it isn't because of the math.

It’s a mess, sure, but your specific criticism confuses me. The basic math of 5e is fairly predictable, IME. Even multi-character combos don’t cause damage spikes that break the game. The biggest spikes take the most resources, and cost vs output follows a fairly steady curve.

I wasn't really making a value judgement. I like swinginess in my games -- hence why Savage Worlds is a favorite of mine. 5E isn't really moment to moment swingy, though. Instead, it has a billion moving parts that are not individually or collectively balanced, so every possible combination of viable PCs creates a new standard for "balance."

 

[Reynard]

I’ve not seen that in play or even read any detailed analysis that showed that. Can you give examples?

It’s a mess, sure, but your specific criticism confuses me. The basic math of 5e is fairly predictable, IME. Even multi-character combos don’t cause damage spikes that break the game. The biggest spikes take the most resources, and cost vs output follows a fairly steady curve.

I mean that the same group of players will produce parties of wildly different combat prowess between campaigns. I have been playing with (largely) the same group for 5 years or so now and every time we do a new campaign -- Avernus, Rime, Storm King -- the party composition is different (because people want to play something new) and as a result I have to completely relearn how to balance encounters for them. I can't give you any numbers because I did not track it that closely; I just know what my experiences were.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I mean that the same group of players will produce parties of wildly different combat prowess between campaigns. I have been playing with (largely) the same group for 5 years or so now and every time we do a new campaign -- Avernus, Rime, Storm King -- the party composition is different (because people want to play something new) and as a result I have to completely relearn how to balance encounters for them. I can't give you any numbers because I did not track it that closely; I just know what my experiences were.

Are the encounters not fixed in the adventures?
I have not once balanced an encounter for a certain party and over the course of an adventure, some encounters were easier than expected and some were harder and what encounter exactly depended on the composition of the party, but on average, all parties did fine.

 

[Oofta]

I mean that the same group of players will produce parties of wildly different combat prowess between campaigns. I have been playing with (largely) the same group for 5 years or so now and every time we do a new campaign -- Avernus, Rime, Storm King -- the party composition is different (because people want to play something new) and as a result I have to completely relearn how to balance encounters for them. I can't give you any numbers because I did not track it that closely; I just know what my experiences were.

But hasn't that pretty much always been the case in every edition? At least that's been my experience. D&D is not a board game, no edition has been. I've needed to adjust for every group, it's just part of being a DM.

 

[payn]

But hasn't that pretty much always been the case in every edition? At least that's been my experience. D&D is not a board game, no edition has been. I've needed to adjust for every group, it's just part of being a DM.

Agreed, there is always a dialing in period where you learn the groups dynamics. That's the price of having a well nuanced list of classes and options to choose from. There are games where it matters less because they have very tight math, and others have very limited class options. D&D has never really been like those.