D&D General Gen Con, Daisy, Sleeping in the Lobby and All That

[Snarf Zagyg]

You should see US Libertarians. Until this past year, pretty much any gathering would lead us to loudly and vehemently agreeing with each other...

…it is weird that believers in individualism have trouble organizing as a group!

 

[Gradine]

I think calling like-minded people in is tricky business, and when done wrong it definitely resembles the stereotypical "circular firing squad". And I think that people can sometimes be overzealous in what they consider to be worth calling others in for.

And while this was definitely an example of the former, it was definitely not an example of the latter.

Defensiveness is understandable and hard to tamp down but it's also extremely unhelpful

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I think calling like-minded people in is tricky business, and when done wrong it definitely resembles the stereotypical "circular firing squad". And I think that people can sometimes be overzealous in what they consider to be worth calling others in for.

And while this was definitely an example of the former, it was definitely not an example of the latter.

Defensiveness is understandable and hard to tamp down but it's also extremely unhelpful

Counterpoint- you do not speak for all victims or survivors.You do not speak for me, or, I am sure, for many others here.

You deserve to have your feelings validated with language you want; as do others. Given we had a thread not too long ago when people were defending the comparison of regular gamers to childhood sexual assault survivors without being called out on it, I find the idea that someone would call out an acceptable term as "victim-blaming" to be beyond the pale. And yeah, I take that very personally.

That's not defensiveness. That's honesty.

 

[Gradine]

Counterpoint- you do not speak for all victims or survivors.You do not speak for me, or, I am sure, for many others here.

You deserve to have your feelings validated with language you want; as do others. Given we had a thread not too long ago when people were defending the comparison of regular gamers to childhood sexual assault survivors without being called out on it, I find the idea that someone would call out an acceptable term as "victim-blaming" to be beyond the pale. And yeah, I take that very personally.

That's not defensiveness. That's honesty.

"Victim-blaming" was absolutely the wrong interpretation of what was happening, that wasn't the issue with the language being used. The issue was exactly what I raised, and exactly what he addressed in his response to me, and to be perfectly frank that's probably where the discussion should have ended.

But one can disagree and still be respectful. You may not agree that "embarrassed" is dismissive and harmful, but you can respect that the issue impacts me powerfully enough to not buckle down and repeatedly argue the semantics if it. That's defensiveness

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

"Victim-blaming" was absolutely the wrong interpretation of what was happening, that wasn't the issue with the language being used. The issue was exactly what I raised, and exactly what he addressed in his response to me, and to be perfectly frank that's probably where the discussion should have ended.

Well, here's the thing- this was all kicked off because someone chose to equate the word usage to "victim-blaming." That's not appropriate, at all.

But one can disagree and still be respectful. You may not agree that "embarrassed" is dismissive and harmful, but you can respect that the issue impacts me powerfully enough to not buckle down and repeatedly argue the semantics if it. That's defensiveness

No. I can tell you that your dismissive attitude toward this makes me incredibly angry and is impacting me powerfully, but I'm not going to demand that you adopt the language I use to express myself.

Because I don't tell other people how to feel to about their own trauma and demand they use only the words I have approved. YMMV.

 

[Gradine]

No. I can tell you that your dismissive attitude toward this makes me incredibly angry and is impacting me powerfully, but I'm not going to demand that you adopt the language I use to express myself.

Excuse me? In what way am I being dismissive here? I feel that I'm trying to be as fair-minded as possible to every side here. And I'm definitely trying to be thoughtful and appreciative of alternative thought, while trying to make my own point.

Because I don't tell other people how to feel to about their own trauma

And I've definitely not done any of this either, you'll note that I have very explicitly referred to only my own experiences, so I'm not really sure where this is coming from.

and demand they use only the words I have approved. YMMV.

Please understand that what you're doing here is telling a trans person that pointing out language that hurts them and asking to be respected on that point in the spaces they occupy is somehow "demanding only to hear approved words", because that's an argument that's been thrown in my face many, many times in my life and it doesn't hold any more water now that the topic is different.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Please understand that what you're doing here is telling a trans person that pointing out language that hurts them and asking to be respected on that point in the spaces they occupy is somehow "demanding only to hear approved words", because that's an argument that's been thrown in my face many, many times in my life and it doesn't hold any more water now that the topic is different.

Oh… really? You only mention it all the time.

And to be clear, you‘re policing the words a survivor uses Someone who dealt with people like you Gradine-spraining to them that their feelings weren’t valid, and their words weren’t right, and that they knew better than I did how I felt.

So take your sanctimonious attitude and sell it to someone else. Thanks!

 

[Gradine]

I feel I need to clarify my position here a minute, because honestly the word "embarrassed" itself isnt what bothered me and isn't what I was responding to. It was the full phrase "The reason [reporting sexual violence] doesn't happen is because the victims are embarrassed about the situation".

It was the idea that embarrassment was the only, or even just the main reason, why survivors don't report they assaults. This was wrong, and triggering, so I said my piece, and felt the response to it made perfect sense. I even "liked" the post!

That's a level of nuance that gets lost in the forum sauce when tempers flare and accusations get thrown about, and I take my own share of responsibility in misrepresenting myself in this.

 

[Gradine]

And to be clear, you‘re policing the words a survivor uses Someone who dealt with people like you Gradine-spraining to them that their feelings weren’t valid, and their words weren’t right, and that they knew better than I did how I felt.

So take your sanctimonious attitude and sell it to someone else. Thanks!

Please, please once point to an example of me telling somebody else their feelings weren't valid, or that my own feelings were more important than anyone else's, and I will happily apologize for them. I really don't think I've been doing that, but I'd be genuinely contrite to be proven wrong. I have literally only stated that people ought to be more willing to respect the wishes of someone, anyone, when they language they're using is triggering to them. If that is really so terrible, then perhaps it is I should take my leave.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Please, please once point to an example of me telling somebody else their feelings weren't valid, or that my own feelings were more important than anyone else's, and I will happily apologize for them. I really don't think I've been doing that, but I'd be genuinely contrite to be proven wrong. I have literally only stated that people ought to be more willing to respect the wishes of someone, anyone, when they language they're using is triggering to them. If that is really so terrible, then perhaps it is I should take my leave.

I don’t think you realize how this conversation, and your demands that people talk about it only in the way you find acceptable, can come off as controlling and hurtful to people with past experiences.

There‘s a huge difference between asking people to be respectful of your identity, and trying to control the language they use to express themselves. I only speak for myself, but there can be a lot of pain in recalling being told how to feel and what to say.