D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Oofta]

So much for "the world doesn't level up to match the PCs"...

If those first level PCs want to hunt down an arch-demon in Avernus, they're free to attempt it in my campaign. On the other hand, 20th level PCs don't get hired to take out the rats* in the basement in my campaign either. So I fail to see your point. If you want the PCs to be challenged, you have to design encounters with those PCs in mind. I don't see why that would be controversial.

*It's never really rats.

 

[Mort]

So for folks that believe that the wizard is, in fact, "all that" -- at what level do you feel that happens.

I always thought that 5th level spells was the real tipping point for casters.

Depends on how much the DM lets the PCs dictate the pace of play.

If the PCs are completely allowed to dictate then the Wizard can be "all that" very quickly by 2nd or 3rd level even.

If the DM is experienced and puts many constraints on the PCs dictating the pace? Then it can be staved off until tier 3 or even 4 - and even then the wizard may have to work for it. But it's MUCH harder to constrain casters, especially wizards, than non-casters.

 

[Maxperson]

If those first level PCs want to hunt down an arch-demon in Avernus, they're free to attempt it in my campaign. On the other hand, 20th level PCs don't get hired to take out the rats* in the basement in my campaign either. So I fail to see your point. If you want the PCs to be challenged, you have to design encounters with those PCs in mind. I don't see why that would be controversial.

*It's never really rats.

Plus, while a 20th level group will sometimes wander into orcs and ogres, those fights aren't played out. They're either narrated to victory and you move on, or the orcs/ogres realize a super powerful group when they see one and slink away. Encounters outside the PC's abilities are likewise avoided by the PCs or negotiated with. It's the ones in the PCs' range that end up being the overwhelming majority of the fights(the 6-8 encounters).

 

[DND_Reborn]

So for folks that believe that the wizard is, in fact, "all that" -- at what level do you feel that happens.

I always thought that 5th level spells was the real tipping point for casters.

Not really until 9th IME.

For levels 1-4, Wizards are decent but lack enough spells and slots to really excel beyond other classes.
For levels 5-8, Wizards get enough to start making more of a difference more often.
At level 9 and higher, now Wizards have variety and spell slots (especially with Arcane Recovery) to start being "all that".

Since many games end around 10 level (I suppose?), I can see some frustration in the views of other players if near the end of the game, the Wizard is standing out, with power and versatility enough to be "all that" but their PC doesn't seem to be able to be as much "all that".

 

[Yaarel]

Excellent idea! I would include a sort of 'Hedge Magic' school that any spell caster can learn from that's mostly

Mostly ... ?

Or just a familiar. Little level 1 ritual.

Im less into the "pet" mechanic. But a Ranger can do it. Possibly a background. Even a skill depending on the DM.

We could have had broken bones in 4e since we had the DISEASE TRACK! One of the most brilliant yet underused innovation that I really wish had been kept. Perfect to model illness, curses and grievous bodily harm! What's not to love?

Dont make me look it up! Remind me how the 4e disease track worked?

I think there's a bunch of bonkers spells that were added to the game back in the day with the intent that only big bad Spellcasters would have them and the DM wasn't expected to hand them out to PCs... but as restrictions on spells dropped, those legacy spells were dropped into the Wizard spell list. I think a bunch of them should just be removed from the player facing material. Like... why would ANYONE ever use Soul Jar?! If the DM wants to drop these 'forbidden spells' into the adventure in a spell book, it'll be their choice, but don't let a PC just pick them up at level up.

Yeah. Much of the 5e spells that came from old school editions are obsolete in 5e. For example, the ridiculously high level Legend Lore spell is today in 5e a simple History skill check.

Many of the noncombat should instead be a "ritual", that has nothing to do with the spell list. A "ritual" is more like a magic item.

 

[Fanaelialae]

So for folks that believe that the wizard is, in fact, "all that" -- at what level do you feel that happens.

I always thought that 5th level spells was the real tipping point for casters.

I would say that it begins around 5th level, but doesn't become a major discrepancy until around 11th. And, as @Mort says, it will also depend on the DM. One factor that hasn't yet, to my knowledge, been brought up is the prevalence of magic items. In a campaign where the fighter is blinged out with a Helm of Teleportation and a bunch of other useful items, the divide is much narrower than in a "low-magic" campaign where the 11th level fighter's prize possession is his +1 sword.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

In past edition(1e-3e) it was 3rd level spells. In 5e I don't feel that they ever get to be all that, because they have to divide slots up among 6-8 fights and all the utility and exploration that is happening in an adventuring "day."

If the 6-8 fight rule is so critical they really should have a red letter warning in every book published saying "classes are balanced on 6-8 fights per long rest, and short rests every 2 fights. Find a way to make this happen or your games, especially at high level, may be reduced to a steaming pile of doo doo".

 

[Maxperson]

If the 6-8 fight rule is so critical they really should have a red letter warning in every book published saying "classes are balanced on 6-8 fights per long rest, and short rests every 2 fights. Find a way to make this happen or your games, especially at high level, may be reduced to a steaming pile of doo doo".

Absolutely. They should have stressed it better than they did. It's still pretty easy to understand, though.

"Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, most adventuring parties can handle about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day. If the adventure has more easy encounters, the adventurers can get through more. If it has more deadly encounters, they can handle fewer."

That's pretty clear that you need to have 6-8 and if you vary it, to add more encounters if you make the encounters easier or fewer if you make them harder.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I would say that it begins around 5th level, but doesn't become a major discrepancy until around 11th. And, as @Mort says, it will also depend on the DM. One factor that hasn't yet, to my knowledge, been brought up is the prevalence of magic items. In a campaign where the fighter is blinged out with a Helm of Teleportation and a bunch of other useful items, the divide is much narrower than in a "low-magic" campaign where the 11th level fighter's prize possession is his +1 sword.

9th or 11th level. Spell power + enough slots to cover a lot of bases.

Shows up earlier but can be ignored (not ideal) or mitigated with table norms with more ease.

Dependancy includes:
1) resting mechanics used
2) encounter pace and adventure type (follow the adventure path vs open ended setting your own goals)
3) magic item availability
4) DM adjucation of skills
5) amount of DM customizing and spotlighting to PCs

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

If that were true, the fighter would not be a popular class. As far as we know based on DndBeyond numbers they are still the single most popular class out there.

Nope, they're the most created character entry in a character database on a website that requires you to pay to unlock many features, including classes. Can you stop with this already?