D&D General Why Editions Don't Matter

[Campbell]

I don't think it's helpful to talk about this stuff in a binary sense. There's levels to this stuff.

 

[pemerton]

But how does ship to ship combat happen in chess? That is, isn't it possible to always add a context that would make any game "incomplete"?

Do you think it's relevant that "ship to ship combat" isn't even a coherent notion in the context of chess, whereas not only is it an in-principle coherent notion in the context of D&D but many editions of the game have (partial) rules for the purchase of warships?

 

[niklinna]

But how does ship to ship combat happen in chess? That is, isn't it possible to always add a context that would make any game "incomplete"?

What if we redefine a complete game so that it is now incomplete but also no longer the same game?

We have a different game. The original game remains complete.

 

[TwoSix]

I don't think it's helpful to talk about this stuff in a binary sense. There's levels to this stuff.

Well, we can find the next level when we get enough XP.

 

[niklinna]

Well, we can find the next level when we get enough XP.

Flip you for it!

 

[hawkeyefan]

I think the rules aren't clear enough to comfortably jump into a lot of things -- even the ones that cover everything. And D&D seems like one of those things to me.

I think the MtG rules are rules complete - but I still bother people for help interpreting them sometimes (that layers thing).

I'm guessing most board games are rules complete - but it's still nice to have someone who's played before explain the main points so you can start and then be told the rest as it goes.

Bridge is rules complete, but I wouldn't want to sit four beginners down with a copy of Hoyle to learn how to play with any skill.

Is baseball rules complete at this point? But still things happen where the professional umpires need to remember what's in the rule book and mess it up once in a while (or the players or managers think they have).

Again, set aside the words complete and incomplete. I don’t think @gorice was as concerned with finding the perfect label as with conveying the idea.

There may be complete games out there in that the rules books are complete (even if incredibly long and complex). Yes, we can still benefit from outside guidance, but it isn’t necessary.

Give two groups of people the rules to the game, and assuming they understand and follow the rules, they will play the game the same.

With D&D that’s far less true. There’s some variance by edition, but I’d say they all have at least some fuzzy spots.

Give two groups of people the 5E rules, and they will not play exactly the same. I would even possible go a step further and say that without existing game culture to fill in those gaps, it’s not difficult to imagine many people struggling to even figure out how to play.

 

[Oofta]

Again, set aside the words complete and incomplete. I don’t think @gorice was as concerned with finding the perfect label as with conveying the idea.

There may be complete games out there in that the rules books are complete (even if incredibly long and complex). Yes, we can still benefit from outside guidance, but it isn’t necessary.

Give two groups of people the rules to the game, and assuming they understand and follow the rules, they will play the game the same.

With D&D that’s far less true. There’s some variance by edition, but I’d say they all have at least some fuzzy spots.

Give two groups of people the 5E rules, and they will not play exactly the same. I would even possible go a step further and say that without existing game culture to fill in those gaps, it’s not difficult to imagine many people struggling to even figure out how to play.

No game lives in a vacuum, but y'all do know that people have been playing D&D long before there was an internet? With rules that make 5E's rules look encyclopedic? That millions of people have started playing the game with 5E?

It's not that hard to pick up. The fact that two different people play the game differently is IMHO one of the reasons it's so popular. So what if little Tammy and her friends are playing it "wrong"? We probably screwed up a lot of rules when we started as well.

More rules do not inherently make a better game. More rules in the past made it more difficult to understand the game and created a barrier of entry.

There's no such thing as perfect balance of rules vs free-form ruling over rules, but I think for the most part 5E does pretty decent.

 

[Oofta]

Setting aside the labels “complete” and “incomplete”, does anyone really disagree that most folks rely on guidance or information not presented in the books to help them play the game?

I mean, why do youtube channels like Dungeoncraft exist? Why do we have discussions on sites like this? Because the rules are crystal clear?

Forget the specific labels for a minute folks and think about the actual point.

It would pretty much be impossible to not have any outside influence. On the other hand, I don't really rely on rules from previous editions, I don't see why I would.

What I do rely on is past experience, other DMs, various action and fantasy fiction for ideas and pacing. I started DMing before there was an internet and the rules were even more vague. Hopefully my DMing quality has improved even though my overall style hasn't.

 

[hawkeyefan]

No game lives in a vacuum, but y'all do know that people have been playing D&D long before there was an internet? With rules that make 5E's rules look encyclopedic? That millions of people have started playing the game with 5E?

Yes, I’m well aware. What I said was something I applied to all editions. I think 5E relies more on outside guidance than the other editions, but they all do, to some extent.

There's no such thing as perfect balance of rules vs free-form ruling over rules, but I think for the most part 5E does pretty decent.

Sure. It’s not an attack on 5E. It’s simply an observation.

It would pretty much be impossible to not have any outside influence. On the other hand, I don't really rely on rules from previous editions, I don't see why I would.

What I do rely on is past experience, other DMs, various action and fantasy fiction for ideas and pacing. I started DMing before there was an internet and the rules were even more vague. Hopefully my DMing quality has improved even though my overall style hasn't.

Well, “past experience” would encompass rules from previous editions… but really all of that is what I meant by “existing gaming culture”. It’s always played a part. It’s just changed a bit and broadened in scope.

So in the AD&D days I relied on my brother and a couple of his friends to help me understand the rules. These days new players learn from Critical Role and Matt Colville and so on.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Setting aside the labels “complete” and “incomplete”, does anyone really disagree that most folks rely on guidance or information not presented in the books to help them play the game?

I mean, why do youtube channels like Dungeoncraft exist? Why do we have discussions on sites like this? Because the rules are crystal clear?

Forget the specific labels for a minute folks and think about the actual point.

I would even possible go a step further and say that without existing game culture to fill in those gaps, it’s not difficult to imagine many people struggling to even figure out how to play.

I mean it’s easy to imagine many people struggling to figure out checkers. Not everyone easily figures out systems, and instead have other strengths. (Here we risk getting into the question of whether the organism is the singular human or the group of humans)

But beyond that, 5e explains play, gives examples, and provides character creation rules that are robust enough that at least some player know who their character is right out of the gate, while providing DMs with hints atNPC behaviors and attitudes in a way that most people pick up passively while reading the books to learn the actual rules.

It needs better advice for running adventures, absolutely, but it’s entirely playable out of the box.

Newbs watch Handbooker Helper videos instead of reading the rules, and watch more in depth stuff to dive deeper into the game. Because 5e is very easy to pick up and play, but does a poor job with guiding deeper exploration of the game’s nuances and layers.