FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
To be fair, I think the pro D&D side (as a whole) are just as guilty of that toward other preferences.
D&D General Why Editions Don't Matter
- Thread starter Sacrosanct
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Snarf Zagyg
Notorious Liquefactionist
So here’s the thing - everyone does not agree it was awful. Now I might think it was a bad development, and be willing to enter into a thoughtful conversation about the history of illusionism (pace Simbalist) or how Dragonlance and the so-called Hickman revolution led to death of the first generation of D&D and the subsequent change to 2e.
But the reason for this history is not because everyone agrees it is bad. Quite the contrary - it’s because that style of game was wildly popular. People- a LOT of people, liked it, and a lot still do.
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
The primary limitations in D&D 5e toward equipment are:
- Availability - this is mostly decided at the campaign level
- Cost - Do the players earn enough gold to afford these items
- Encumbrance - Encumberance limit in 5e is high so players rarely have to make sacrifices around what to carry
- Player Wit - remembering you have items and figuring out how to use them creatively
gorice
Hero
I mean, the real 'system' is the one you use at the table. If your group always runs the game the same way, it doesn't matter that much which edition you're playing. D&D seems particularly prone to this, and I'm not sure how much of it has been by accident or design. I do think that 5e's deisgners were fairly clever (some might say cynical) in leaving plenty of space for people to insert their own system in play.
Manbearcat
Legend
We're definitely not going to agree on this subject (but we already knew that!). I'm at least glad that we agree on the bottom (there are a few differences between the two systems that bear out significant differences between the two systems, trivially illustrating that system matters...and it matters a lot...and whether you have a poorly-designed game or a well-designed games - of which both ST and DW are - a game engine is going to be very sensitive to changes; again "system matters").
Obviously, when it comes to scarcity vs abundance, I disagree that I've got a textual interpretation that isn't born out in the texts or in play. I'm quite confident that its not a situation where textual analysis is colored by my priors. One of my two Stonetop games is still early (6-7 sessions), but the other game is 5 months strong and a full season in (winter is gripping the land).
I hope this doesn't come off as aggressive. I'm not meaning it to be that. I'm going for comprehensive. Here is my network of evidence that makes up my case for scarcity vs abundance as an important theme in Stonetop. I'm going to sblock this because its basically just a "you and I conversation" and doesn't directly engage with this thread. I will say however, that the below is (IMO) ample evidence that subtly changing system has a large downstream effect on both theme/premise/content of play and on the process of play itself by way of interacting with the decision-points that the game engine + GMing puts before you.
1) After The Agricultural Revolution, whether you're a city-state or a small collective (such as Stonetop), climate change, pestilence/parasite, major weather events that affect animal husbandry/harvest yield/nutrition + sieges/raiding (leading to shortages and possibly famine) are major impactors to the success and wellness of a people. Even today in the developed world we're still dealing with our extreme sensitivity to these issues.
2) Expeditions, journeys, and trekking are all deeply sensitive to careful stewardship of your gear and supplies, an expected model of attrition vs a surprise event (such as forgetting to pack something out or losing provisions/gear to something unforeseen or someone consuming/using more than their share), and everyone being able carry their own weight. When any of these things go off (stewardship or attrition rate or everyone being able to carry their weight), things go wrong and tend toward a positive feedback loop which tends toward putting the endeavor in great peril. Simply put, expeditions are very sensitive to each of these things.
3) Stonetop has a huge amount of both discrete and integrated system architecture and procedures that yield reinforces this:
PRINCIPLE - EMBRACE THE FANTASTIC AND MUNDANE
"But at the same time, ground the game in human concerns: the turn of seasons, the coming harvest, friends and neighbors. Threaten the PCs with real-world dangers: harsh weather, wild beasts, starvation, exposure."
DESCRIPTORS, DANGERS, THREATS, OPPORTUNITIES, GAINS, ASSETS, STEADING IMPROVEMENTS
* You'll find plenty of descriptors that depict things like "well-fed gentry", "desperate beggars", deprivation/hunger/thirst/exposure as both Dangers and a Threat.
* You'll find "mark a debility from hunger," ample conversations about harvest and planting and gardens and livestock.
* Important assets/places of interest (that you have to upkeep, care for, and can and should be the target of moves or Threats) on Stonetop's steading map are the granary and the cistern. Resources called out are farming, hunting/trapping, draft horses/cart/iron plow for this work, and rain collection.
* 1 of 6 "Content" items specifically calls out Starvation (or the threat thereof) as featured.
* 2 of the 5 Seasonal Gains are specifically about scarcity vs abundance (Unexpected Bounty and Trade Opportunity), another is about weather (which isn't just color...it infects play with opportunities and dangers related to deprivation or threat - water in the cistern or flooding/damage to assets - or exposure while on expeditions). The final 2 (interesting news and valuable insight) are open-ended and will be about a myriad of things (opportunities and dangers/threats).
* The Steading Improvements have many features that directly play into this: Auroch's Hunting, Diverting the Stream, Greater Harvest, Improved Rainwater Collection, Mill, Marketplace, Township. Then you have Herd of Horses which indirectly plays into this (decreasing the stress on Requisitioning Stonetop's horses for Expeditions).
* Particular Threat moves or dangers play into this specifically (even beyond the general threat moves for Homefront and Expedition that can, and should IMO, interact with this) with "trigger shortages, hoarding," "despoil, loot, pillage, burn," "justify selfishness, neglect," "consume something (or someone)," "present a want or need," "lack of shelter, water, or wood for a long-burning fire," "hunger, if you can't afford food," "exposure to harsh weather, if you can't afford shelter," "apathy from those who could/should help."
PERSONAGES, STATS, MOVES
* When you're making your Stonetop, you create a large suite of NPCs to manage the division of labor and expertise in Stonetop. These experts are essential in dealing with the maintenance of Stonetop's buildings and infrastructure and livestock and fields and water collection and laws and mediation and new construction projects and public works/wellfare. Everything from engineers to publicans to stonemasons to carpenters to farmers to midwifes etc etc etc. And their tools. These people are terribly important (because your GM should be putting pressure on them during Homefront) and ensuring they have tools or upgrading their tools is extremely important. You lose one of these people or you lose their tools and now you have a problem.
* Size, Prosperity, Population, Defense - These all come directly from Dungeon World's ample steading chapter and, while they're cribbed fairly directly, they integrate with the rest of the Homefront moves and Homefront phase and Homefront Threats/Opportunities/Dangers to a degree that Dungeon World doesn't possess. "The Steading Mini-game" is something that isn't central to DW while it is not just central, but fundamental to Stonetop. These are all what they sound like, they all have a value associated with them (eg +0) and you use them to make a move when that tag is the dominant attribute involved in the move. However, while Prosperity represents the kinds and quality of items/capability that the steading has on hand/can muster, its much more potent of an item in Stonetop as better or worse Prosperity adjusts key attributes when it comes to gear.
Fortunes - Reflects the general morale and disposition of the steading and therefore reflects their willingness to let PCs requisition their precious assets (plenty of those assets directly related to the subject at hand) of Stonetop and take them on Expeditions. This is a huge component of the scarcity vs abundance theme that I'm speaking to. This number is continuously changing in the course of play (up and down) and reflect flagging morale and abundant morale and that flagging or abundance has significant action resolution input into play.
Surplus - Directly relates to the steadings production and plays a key role in managing load in the field, bartering, etc. The worse your Surplus is, the scarcer supplies and provisions are and the inverse is true; the higher the modifier the more abundant.
* Steading moves and Season moves all rely upon these statistics/tags being well-managed in the course of play. We're in the throes of Winter so we just made the Winter move. Population suddenly increased due to a large Threat from Gordon's Delve resolving so now there is a refugee crisis that Stonetop had to deal with. Suddenly Population swelled without a simultaneous Surplus gain.
When winter grips the land, whoever is most weary rolls 1d4+Population, and the steading consumes that much Surplus (minimum
0). If there isn’t enough, reduce Surplus to 0 and Fortunes by 1, then choose 1 from the list below:
Well, we had a Population swell and not enough Surplus to handle it. So our game got hit with one of the above.
At the end of Winter we roll Fortunes and on a 7-9 we complete the same process above again. On a 6- same thing but multiple new Threats enter play.
All the rest of the Season moves (Spring, Summer, Fall) and Steading moves (Deploy, Muster, Meet With Disaster, Pull Together) interact with these statistics (which intersect with play to balance them, improve them, maintain them, stop them from freefalling) and when you don't get a 10+, you're dealing with important personnel loss, stat changes, asset loss. When you get a 6- you're not even getting what you wanted...something bad just happens and this feeds back onto play. You lose something important to you and now you have to figure out life without it for the time being and Make a Plan (a move) to replace that loss.
Requisition on a 6- means you get the asset/personnel you were wanting from the steading, but you reduce Fortunes by 1.
Forage is a huge move that is regularly used to replenish Provisions, Stock, or get a useful item when you're in the wild on an Expedition. When its winter and/or if you're in certain lands? You're dealing with a barren environment and now you're rolling Disadvantage on your move. Same goes for Trade and Barter if you're in a steading in Winter. Yeah, you can try to find what you're looking for but it will be scarce; take Disadvantage.
There is a very large host of PC build gear/tags/moves that intersect with the steading minigame (Homefront phase) and Expeditions in an effort to thwart the effects of scarcity, exposure, starvation/thirst, barren environs. All of the tools for your particular job in the steading are a tag that net you a +1 to a move related to your job. I won't go over all of the playbook moves because there are just too many to point out. But they engage with all of the mentioned above.
So that is my network of evidence that converges to make my case. Whether or not you agree with that, I hope you'll consider that network of evidence and reconsider your position that I'm just confirming my priors.
2) Expeditions, journeys, and trekking are all deeply sensitive to careful stewardship of your gear and supplies, an expected model of attrition vs a surprise event (such as forgetting to pack something out or losing provisions/gear to something unforeseen or someone consuming/using more than their share), and everyone being able carry their own weight. When any of these things go off (stewardship or attrition rate or everyone being able to carry their weight), things go wrong and tend toward a positive feedback loop which tends toward putting the endeavor in great peril. Simply put, expeditions are very sensitive to each of these things.
3) Stonetop has a huge amount of both discrete and integrated system architecture and procedures that yield reinforces this:
PRINCIPLE - EMBRACE THE FANTASTIC AND MUNDANE
"But at the same time, ground the game in human concerns: the turn of seasons, the coming harvest, friends and neighbors. Threaten the PCs with real-world dangers: harsh weather, wild beasts, starvation, exposure."
DESCRIPTORS, DANGERS, THREATS, OPPORTUNITIES, GAINS, ASSETS, STEADING IMPROVEMENTS
* You'll find plenty of descriptors that depict things like "well-fed gentry", "desperate beggars", deprivation/hunger/thirst/exposure as both Dangers and a Threat.
* You'll find "mark a debility from hunger," ample conversations about harvest and planting and gardens and livestock.
* Important assets/places of interest (that you have to upkeep, care for, and can and should be the target of moves or Threats) on Stonetop's steading map are the granary and the cistern. Resources called out are farming, hunting/trapping, draft horses/cart/iron plow for this work, and rain collection.
* 1 of 6 "Content" items specifically calls out Starvation (or the threat thereof) as featured.
* 2 of the 5 Seasonal Gains are specifically about scarcity vs abundance (Unexpected Bounty and Trade Opportunity), another is about weather (which isn't just color...it infects play with opportunities and dangers related to deprivation or threat - water in the cistern or flooding/damage to assets - or exposure while on expeditions). The final 2 (interesting news and valuable insight) are open-ended and will be about a myriad of things (opportunities and dangers/threats).
* The Steading Improvements have many features that directly play into this: Auroch's Hunting, Diverting the Stream, Greater Harvest, Improved Rainwater Collection, Mill, Marketplace, Township. Then you have Herd of Horses which indirectly plays into this (decreasing the stress on Requisitioning Stonetop's horses for Expeditions).
* Particular Threat moves or dangers play into this specifically (even beyond the general threat moves for Homefront and Expedition that can, and should IMO, interact with this) with "trigger shortages, hoarding," "despoil, loot, pillage, burn," "justify selfishness, neglect," "consume something (or someone)," "present a want or need," "lack of shelter, water, or wood for a long-burning fire," "hunger, if you can't afford food," "exposure to harsh weather, if you can't afford shelter," "apathy from those who could/should help."
PERSONAGES, STATS, MOVES
* When you're making your Stonetop, you create a large suite of NPCs to manage the division of labor and expertise in Stonetop. These experts are essential in dealing with the maintenance of Stonetop's buildings and infrastructure and livestock and fields and water collection and laws and mediation and new construction projects and public works/wellfare. Everything from engineers to publicans to stonemasons to carpenters to farmers to midwifes etc etc etc. And their tools. These people are terribly important (because your GM should be putting pressure on them during Homefront) and ensuring they have tools or upgrading their tools is extremely important. You lose one of these people or you lose their tools and now you have a problem.
* Size, Prosperity, Population, Defense - These all come directly from Dungeon World's ample steading chapter and, while they're cribbed fairly directly, they integrate with the rest of the Homefront moves and Homefront phase and Homefront Threats/Opportunities/Dangers to a degree that Dungeon World doesn't possess. "The Steading Mini-game" is something that isn't central to DW while it is not just central, but fundamental to Stonetop. These are all what they sound like, they all have a value associated with them (eg +0) and you use them to make a move when that tag is the dominant attribute involved in the move. However, while Prosperity represents the kinds and quality of items/capability that the steading has on hand/can muster, its much more potent of an item in Stonetop as better or worse Prosperity adjusts key attributes when it comes to gear.
Fortunes - Reflects the general morale and disposition of the steading and therefore reflects their willingness to let PCs requisition their precious assets (plenty of those assets directly related to the subject at hand) of Stonetop and take them on Expeditions. This is a huge component of the scarcity vs abundance theme that I'm speaking to. This number is continuously changing in the course of play (up and down) and reflect flagging morale and abundant morale and that flagging or abundance has significant action resolution input into play.
Surplus - Directly relates to the steadings production and plays a key role in managing load in the field, bartering, etc. The worse your Surplus is, the scarcer supplies and provisions are and the inverse is true; the higher the modifier the more abundant.
* Steading moves and Season moves all rely upon these statistics/tags being well-managed in the course of play. We're in the throes of Winter so we just made the Winter move. Population suddenly increased due to a large Threat from Gordon's Delve resolving so now there is a refugee crisis that Stonetop had to deal with. Suddenly Population swelled without a simultaneous Surplus gain.
When winter grips the land, whoever is most weary rolls 1d4+Population, and the steading consumes that much Surplus (minimum
0). If there isn’t enough, reduce Surplus to 0 and Fortunes by 1, then choose 1 from the list below:
- A handful of the weaker or less fortunate starve or freeze to death; more children and elderly die than ought
- An important NPC dies, their role unfilled
- An important resource (one of the horses, the cistern, etc.) is lost or not maintained.
Well, we had a Population swell and not enough Surplus to handle it. So our game got hit with one of the above.
At the end of Winter we roll Fortunes and on a 7-9 we complete the same process above again. On a 6- same thing but multiple new Threats enter play.
All the rest of the Season moves (Spring, Summer, Fall) and Steading moves (Deploy, Muster, Meet With Disaster, Pull Together) interact with these statistics (which intersect with play to balance them, improve them, maintain them, stop them from freefalling) and when you don't get a 10+, you're dealing with important personnel loss, stat changes, asset loss. When you get a 6- you're not even getting what you wanted...something bad just happens and this feeds back onto play. You lose something important to you and now you have to figure out life without it for the time being and Make a Plan (a move) to replace that loss.
Requisition on a 6- means you get the asset/personnel you were wanting from the steading, but you reduce Fortunes by 1.
Forage is a huge move that is regularly used to replenish Provisions, Stock, or get a useful item when you're in the wild on an Expedition. When its winter and/or if you're in certain lands? You're dealing with a barren environment and now you're rolling Disadvantage on your move. Same goes for Trade and Barter if you're in a steading in Winter. Yeah, you can try to find what you're looking for but it will be scarce; take Disadvantage.
There is a very large host of PC build gear/tags/moves that intersect with the steading minigame (Homefront phase) and Expeditions in an effort to thwart the effects of scarcity, exposure, starvation/thirst, barren environs. All of the tools for your particular job in the steading are a tag that net you a +1 to a move related to your job. I won't go over all of the playbook moves because there are just too many to point out. But they engage with all of the mentioned above.
So that is my network of evidence that converges to make my case. Whether or not you agree with that, I hope you'll consider that network of evidence and reconsider your position that I'm just confirming my priors.
With that said, I will say that for the overwhelming bulk of our Stonetop games we've been playing is "as is." Only 2 sessions ago I made a singular change to to the system/play; a change to Struggle As One (Group Defy Danger for those unacquainted) or SAO for short. Everything else is "as is" (though when I GM it in the future, I will change Inventory to classic DW inventory with Surplus value likely being your default Adventuring Gear or Rations, player choice, when you Outfit for an Expedition + change Advantage to the typical AW take +1/-1 because Advantage/Disadvantage on moves, not damage, impacts the distribution far more than I feel is healthy for play + I would change the Relationship xp trigger to Bonds). But just this singular change of Struggle as One has netted significant results...yet another example of "system matters." Up until 2 sessions ago (approximately 26 total sessions of Stonetop GMed), I had yet to have a single Struggle As One more NOT achieve a 7-9. A 7-9 for Struggle As One effectively = a 10+ for a normal move (you get what you want with no complications - "you pull your weight"). This dramatically affected the distribution of results during play due to the reality that the mathematical model of the SAO by itself bulwarked by the varying ways to get Advantage and/or get a resource that you can spend to turn a 6- into a 7-9 or a 7-9 into a 10+. A singular 7-9 significantly snowballs play and perturbs the trajectory of a situation from this to that or this other trajectory. So when we changed it to "a Struggle As One 7-9 is a 7-9 just like any other move (success with complication/cost)", it has significantly impacted play just in this short interval.
One minor change to Group Defy Danger (Struggle As One) has impacted play significantly. It would be the same if I changed Advantage/Disadvantage on moves to take +1/-1. Or the aforementioned Blades Loadout procedure to a more DW-centric Inventory system. Or changed an xp trigger from broad to specific (eg Relationships to Bonds). Or changed any other number of things about the game.
System Matters....a lot. It matters a lot both in table-facing games with significant "system say", encoded GM constraint, transparent/codified action resolution (intricate or broad) and if the game is overwhelmingly GM-facing without much encoded GM constraint and with action resolution that is overwhelmingly "GM says/decides" (because "the GM's operating system is the system" in these scenarios and that system has significant impacts on the process of play, the feel of that process of play (for both the players and GM), and the trajectory of play (how it unfolds...who controls the gamestate when and how and how often).
Aldarc
Legend
You win 1 Internet point. I'm not going to argue against your wall of text.
Last edited:
You criticised someone's exegesis of the text, and then when they set out their textual evidence you ridicule them for it. That seems a bit unnecessary!
Mod Note:
During a traditional gish gallop, the person presents a long series of specious, poorly founded arguments and occasional false statements.
If you are going to disengage, maybe don't do it with accusations that you then aren't going to back up. Poor form, that.
Folks need to learn to walk away without the nasty parting shots.
Imaro
Legend
Yeah you might be right... but at least in this thread it wasn't the pro D&D side that made that statement...
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
Sure. But IMO, it doesn’t really matter who did it last or first when we all just want it to end.
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