D&D (2024) Sharp shooter/Great Weapon Mastery

[Bill Zebub]

Has it been suggested that the loss of -5/+10 to the GWM and SS feats is because this is now going to be a default ability, either in combat generally, or for the Warrior class specifically?

Maybe they're planning on letting anyone do this, without needing a feat, and that's why it's not in the playtest. I think we just don't know enough about DD1 yet to know for sure.

It has been suggested by people here, including me, but not (as far as I've heard) by anybody who is anybody.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Sure, replace rope with mountain climb, replace calm lake with weird oily viscous liquid, etc etc. The point is still made, there are many checks that PCs make that they can spam guidance on.

Guidance remains one of the best cantrips in the game, and I'd argue the best spells because of its ubiquity. Even this new version I would always take with my cleric, not even a question.

But that ubiquity is now gone. Use it on the mountain climb, and you won't be able to use it on the check to unlock the door, or the stealth check, or the persuasion check. Unless you have the people who are doing those door, stealth or persuasion checks all succeeding on the mountain climb.

And this is actually a good example, because the bard is pretty likely to fail that Athletics check, but they may want to have that guidance when they are the ones using Persuasion to prevent a fight with the Frost Giant's they find above. And I don't like this feeling that the spell can only help someone once. It doesn't even guarantee a success, it only gives a chance of success if you barely fail. If it was "turn a failed skill check into a success" then I would be able to at least see that it was very powerful, but this isn't that.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Has it been suggested that the loss of -5/+10 to the GWM and SS feats is because this is now going to be a default ability, either in combat generally, or for the Warrior class specifically?

Maybe they're planning on letting anyone do this, without needing a feat, and that's why it's not in the playtest. I think we just don't know enough about DD1 yet to know for sure.

That's the idea out there. And I've been considering doing the -prof, +x2prof damage version as just a general rule for called shots.

I always have people trying to do called shots, and this makes it way easier to handle that.

 

[Stalker0]

But that ubiquity is now gone. Use it on the mountain climb, and you won't be able to use it on the check to unlock the door, or the stealth check, or the persuasion check. Unless you have the people who are doing those door, stealth or persuasion checks all succeeding on the mountain climb.

And this is actually a good example, because the bard is pretty likely to fail that Athletics check, but they may want to have that guidance when they are the ones using Persuasion to prevent a fight with the Frost Giant's they find above. And I don't like this feeling that the spell can only help someone once. It doesn't even guarantee a success, it only gives a chance of success if you barely fail. If it was "turn a failed skill check into a success" then I would be able to at least see that it was very powerful, but this isn't that.

I see that as nothing but a good, its a CANTRIP, but it was boosting skills by an average greater than 8 levels of character growth! (8!!!). It should be a bit rarer and more conservative. The idea that a caster might actually have to consider when to use guidance, rather than just spam it like a crazy person...that is an absolute breath of fresh air to me.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I see that as nothing but a good, its a CANTRIP, but it was boosting skills by an average greater than 8 levels of character growth! (8!!!). It should be a bit rarer and more conservative. The idea that a caster might actually have to consider when to use guidance, rather than just spam it like a crazy person...that is an absolute breath of fresh air to me.

And the Help action boosts skills by an average of 20 levels of character growth. 20!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Should we make that even rarer and more conservative?

It is a +2.5. Yes, a +2.5 is good, but you can't exactly get much lower. And this sure is never an argument in combat, we can see damage boosted by an average of 4.5 (nearly double) and think "meh. it is okay" but skills being boosted by half that are so terribly unbalanced?

I have never, before this thread, heard that guidance is far too powerful and breaks the game. I've heard that it is troubling it can stack with a series of other effects and make a single skill check easy to succeed, and I've heard that it is spammed constantly and that is annoying, but never that it is overpowered and broken by itself.

And I still don't get why it has to be that a caster "needs to consider" whether or not to use it. A caster never has to "consider" if they are using Mage Hand to grab something, they just do it. They never need to consider if they use their attack cantrip, they just do it, unless they want to use something STRONGER. And, as has been discussed, there aren't any leveled spells that really apply in the same way Guidance does. The only one I can think of is Enhance Ability, but that isn't "should I use Guidance or not" it is "Should I use Enhance Ability or not". Guidance is the weak at-will version. I shouldn't have to consider whether or not I use it any more than I should have to consider whether I use minor illusion to make an illusion, spare the dying to stabilize someone, or an attack cantrip to attack someone.

 

[Horwath]

Has it been suggested that the loss of -5/+10 to the GWM and SS feats is because this is now going to be a default ability, either in combat generally, or for the Warrior class specifically?

Maybe they're planning on letting anyone do this, without needing a feat, and that's why it's not in the playtest. I think we just don't know enough about DD1 yet to know for sure.

General rule or a half-feat could be:

-1 attack / +2 damage
at 5th level: -2/+4
at 11th level -3/+6
at 17th level -4/+8

 

[jasper]

I guess I'm in the minority but I actually don't like this change. Yes +10 damage is a big hike but at low levels the -5 often translates to missing entirely and at higher levels the +10 is offset by higher monster HP's and all the high damage ranged attacks that spellcasters get to dish out.

Thinking back to the Vox Machina Vecna fight with Vecna's high AC I seem to recall Percy having to really gamble whether Sharpshooter would allow him to land a hit or not. shrugs But like I said I really seem to be in the minority on this one.

Once you hit tier 2 the -5 really does NOT come into affect unless the monster AC is 19+. Especially if players remember the -5.

Edited. MISSED THE NOT.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I like the change, but I am going to be keeping a very close eye on the development of the other classes.
I do not regard the changes as "Making martials weaker", just making a couple of specific builds of martials more in line with the others.
Hopefully now martials can be balanced against other classes without the assumption that an optimised build capable of multiple times more damage is the baseline to balance against.

 

[Bill Zebub]

And the Help action boosts skills by an average of 20 levels of character growth. 20!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Should we make that even rarer and more conservative?

Yes, obviously.

 

[tetrasodium]

Once you hit tier 2 the -5 really does come into affect unless the monster AC is 19+. Especially if players remember the -5.

No it really doesn't. Few things have high enough ac to matter & that gets worse as soon as the gm starts giving out magic items because they are expected in d&d.

And the Help action boosts skills by an average of 20 levels of character growth. 20!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Should we make that even rarer and more conservative?

It is a +2.5. Yes, a +2.5 is good, but you can't exactly get much lower. And this sure is never an argument in combat, we can see damage boosted by an average of 4.5 (nearly double) and think "meh. it is okay" but skills being boosted by half that are so terribly unbalanced?

I have never, before this thread, heard that guidance is far too powerful and breaks the game. I've heard that it is troubling it can stack with a series of other effects and make a single skill check easy to succeed, and I've heard that it is spammed constantly and that is annoying, but never that it is overpowered and broken by itself.

And I still don't get why it has to be that a caster "needs to consider" whether or not to use it. A caster never has to "consider" if they are using Mage Hand to grab something, they just do it. They never need to consider if they use their attack cantrip, they just do it, unless they want to use something STRONGER. And, as has been discussed, there aren't any leveled spells that really apply in the same way Guidance does. The only one I can think of is Enhance Ability, but that isn't "should I use Guidance or not" it is "Should I use Enhance Ability or not". Guidance is the weak at-will version. I shouldn't have to consider whether or not I use it any more than I should have to consider whether I use minor illusion to make an illusion, spare the dying to stabilize someone, or an attack cantrip to attack someone.

Help IS restricted some in the new glossary & it's a good change. It's explicitly an action & players need to be proficient in the same skill alongside being close enough to help.

The fact that what things like help & guidance create such massive escalation in skills as your post illustrates is evidence of why guidance advantage & expertise is such a trainwreck in a system designed arounds bounded accuracy. You doing that while painting them as critical through this thread is good evidence for why many GMs have such dislike of them. There is not enough room in the math for the gm to add cool stuff that interacts with skills in a system so rife with overuse of Maslow's law/law of the hammer with advantage on top of a system already so stacked in favor of success by Bounded Accuracy before adding all the little one off mods that almost always lean the stacking even further... Tossing expertise into the mix just adds rocket boots to the collapse thrown in the gm's lap 5.5/6e needs to do much better than 2014 5e did so far.