D&D (2024) What is the lowest damage Fireball could deal where you would still prep/use it?

[ECMO3]

No, it wouldn't, not unless most 3rd-level damage spells are "garbage tier". Compared to other 3rd-level damage spells it would still be "okay". It wouldn't be outstanding, but it'd be okay, because of the ridiculous radius. What it would do would be change a spell from a no-brainer to a spell you only memorized when you expected to fight a lot of weak opponents.

So Full Casters should just be a lot more powerful than non-casters?

To start with yes, full casters should be a lot more powerful, they have unmatched access to magic.

That aside though, they are not going to be more powerful because they took fireball. A 5th level wizard with Fireball is not the equivalent of a full martial, even with Fireball I think a 5th level martial will usually cut down a 5th level fireball Wizard with ease most of the time unless the latter switches to control or defensive spells and the martial can do that all day long.

 

[ECMO3]

LOL.

Dude, have you ever looked at level 1 damage spells? 2d6 save for half over a 20' radius, 1257 square feet, hitting dozens of 5' squares, would be drastically more powerful than any other level 1 combat spell. Not "okay". It'd be better than some level 2 combat spells and certainly on-par with most - Snowball Swarm does a 5' radius with 3d6 damage and Shatter does a 10' radius with 3d8 damage (save for half in both cases, Shatter is objectively superior, to Snowball Swarm, and 2d6 Fireball would also be objectively superior to Snowball Swam in virtually all multi-target situations).

It is only situationally better than those you mentioned and most of the time I think it would be worse.

Your hypothesis is based on the idea that it covers a larger area, but that only situationally means it does more damage, if as someone else mentioned there are "a zillion" Kobolds packed in AND your own allies aren't in the way then yes it is better, however that is really the only time it is and I would argue that is rare.

If the enemies are all within a 10 foot shatter would be better due to higher damage.

If there is 1 BBEG shatter or snowball storm is better due to higher damage

If they have more than 10 hit points shatter is better even if there are a zillion of them because it will kill some with 1 blast.

If the Wizard is low on the initiative order and the zillion Kobolds are mixed up with allies snowball storm is better because it lets you surgically pick them off.

So I think MOST of the time those spells are going to be better than a 2d6 Fireball.

For all the raving about Fireball, with current RAW I generally see Lightning Bolt used effectively more often because the huge area covered by Fireball is a liability as often as it is an advantage.

 

[tetrasodium]

It is only situationally better than those you mentioned and most of the time I think it would be worse.

Your hypothesis is based on the idea that it covers a larger area, but that only situationally means it does more damage, if as someone else mentioned there are "a zillion" Kobolds packed in AND your own allies aren't in the way then yes it is better, however that is really the only time it is and I would argue that is rare.

If the enemies are all within a 10 foot shatter would be better due to higher damage.

If there is 1 BBEG shatter or snowball storm is better due to higher damage

If they have more than 10 hit points shatter is better even if there are a zillion of them because it will kill some with 1 blast.

If the Wizard is low on the initiative order and the zillion Kobolds are mixed up with allies snowball storm is better because it lets you surgically pick them off.

So I think MOST of the time those spells are going to be better than a 2d6 Fireball.

For all the raving about Fireball, with current RAW I generally see Lightning Bolt used effectively more often because the huge area covered by Fireball is a liability as often as it is an advantage.

I think you are missing the various mechanics changes in 5e that encourage just the situation @Ruin Explorer described as making fireball so great in 5e.

5e made in combat movement so easy that combats are no longer a spread out tactical affair. Players all use ranged attacks with no downsides or just close to the most valued target & the GM is expected to direct the monsterts towards the crunchier targets rather than simply becoming an adversarial killer gm that sends the monsters off to geek the mage/squash the cleric. Past editions had things like 5 foot step/shift & movement based AoOs but not 5e, absent any of the mechanics that once supported a more spread out combat the players are truly playing by a different set of rules than the combat as sport monsters. Toss in bounded accuracy & 6-8 encounter expectations to create a situation where the GM is pressured to put a gobton of weaker monsters that cluster around a point of crunchier players that fireball is likely able to easily cover. The players aren't worried about fireballing an ally in such a situation because monsters lack enough tohit & damage to be a real threat & the death save mechanic combined with things like healing word that even an unusual freak case of it actually mattering probably won't really matter.

The only time I've seen friendly fire actually matter in 5e was when a player asked if a cloud effect was flammable & I told him to double the damage when faced with a choice between "Maybe maybe not do you want to use your action to figure out?" vrs "nah I cast fireball since bob's saying doitdoitdoit" Everyone was shocked when I didn't save level 8ish bob from death by massive damage & there were even efforts to (incorrectly) ruleslawyer it with rules that didn't exist. Players will fireball other players with a shrug & sorry bro we will get you back up. Bob was immediately revivified after the battle concluded.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

A 2d6 fireball for a level 3 spell is just dumb. I'd maybe take it as a level 1 spell, but only if we have several spellcasters that can also cast it, so low average damage at high range actually resulta in high hp removal before the opposition spreads out.

If it scales with +2d6 damage on upcast, it transitions into a great asset, even with lower damage than today's 8d6 fireball.

If it scaled with +1d6 per level I'd rate isbabout as good as flaming hands, which has rather bad scaling compared to thunderwave.

 

[Clint_L]

LOL.

Dude, have you ever looked at level 1 damage spells? 2d6 save for half over a 20' radius, 1257 square feet, hitting dozens of 5' squares, would be drastically more powerful than any other level 1 combat spell. Not "okay". It'd be better than some level 2 combat spells and certainly on-par with most - Snowball Swarm does a 5' radius with 3d6 damage and Shatter does a 10' radius with 3d8 damage (save for half in both cases, Shatter is objectively superior, to Snowball Swarm, and 2d6 Fireball would also be objectively superior to Snowball Swam in virtually all multi-target situations).

You mean a spell like Flaming Hands, which would do 50% more damage but over a smaller area right in front of the caster? Well, let's see, if there were a zillion kobolds packed into that 20' radius in front of the caster and the party's melee combatants weren't doing their job and mixed in with the kobolds then yeah, 2d6 fireball would definitely be the way to go.

But if it was a more realistic situation where 2-3 foes had gotten loose and charged at the caster then I'd prefer the Flaming Hands. Or Magnify Gravity (probably this, actually). Or Frost Fingers (which no one takes at 2d8 damage). Or Thunderwave. Possibly Ice Knife.

Dude, have you looked at Level 1 damage spells?

 

[ECMO3]

I think you are missing the various mechanics changes in 5e that encourage just the situation @Ruin Explorer described as making fireball so great in 5e.

5e made in combat movement so easy that combats are no longer a spread out tactical affair. Players all use ranged attacks with no downsides or just close to the most valued target & the GM is expected to direct the monsterts towards the crunchier targets rather than simply becoming an adversarial killer gm that sends the monsters off to geek the mage/squash the cleric. Past editions had things like 5 foot step/shift & movement based AoOs but not 5e, absent any of the mechanics that once supported a more spread out combat the players are truly playing by a different set of rules than the combat as sport monsters. Toss in bounded accuracy & 6-8 encounter expectations to create a situation where the GM is pressured to put a gobton of weaker monsters that cluster around a point of crunchier players that fireball is likely able to easily cover. The players aren't worried about fireballing an ally in such a situation because monsters lack enough tohit & damage to be a real threat & the death save mechanic combined with things like healing word that even an unusual freak case of it actually mattering probably won't really matter.

The only time I've seen friendly fire actually matter in 5e was when a player asked if a cloud effect was flammable & I told him to double the damage when faced with a choice between "Maybe maybe not do you want to use your action to figure out?" vrs "nah I cast fireball since bob's saying doitdoitdoit" Everyone was shocked when I didn't save level 8ish bob from death by massive damage & there were even efforts to (incorrectly) ruleslawyer it with rules that didn't exist. Players will fireball other players with a shrug & sorry bro we will get you back up. Bob was immediately revivified after the battle concluded.

I have seen friendly fire matter A LOT in 5E, especially when monsters roll well on initiative.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You mean a spell like Flaming Hands, which would do 50% more damage but over a smaller area right in front of the caster? Well, let's see, if there were a zillion kobolds packed into that 20' radius in front of the caster and the party's melee combatants weren't doing their job and mixed in with the kobolds then yeah, 2d6 fireball would definitely be the way to go.

But if it was a more realistic situation where 2-3 foes had gotten loose and charged at the caster then I'd prefer the Flaming Hands. Or Magnify Gravity (probably this, actually). Or Frost Fingers (which no one takes at 2d8 damage). Or Thunderwave. Possibly Ice Knife.

Dude, have you looked at Level 1 damage spells?

Yes, I have, and you're reaching extremely hard and insisting on putting the caster in absolutely terrible idea "in melee" situations to try and justify this. Things have to already have kind of gone bad. Those spells are all hugely inferior to a 2d6 Fireball in most normal multi-target situations.

Magnify Gravity is the only one which really might compete because it has the movement reduction rider, but it's pretty broken OP like most of the stuff from that book.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Your hypothesis is based on the idea that it covers a larger area, but that only situationally means it does more damage, if as someone else mentioned there are "a zillion" Kobolds packed in AND your own allies aren't in the way then yes it is better, however that is really the only time it is and I would argue that is rare.

Absolutely it is not at all rare, as we see with the current 8d6 level 3 Fireball. People are acting like that doesn't exist which is funny, but very very silly.

Please don't repeat this "a zillion" canard. It really doesn't take many monsters before 2d6 in a gigantic area comes out ahead of 3d6 in a tiny area (which often also requires you to basically be in melee). The circular pattern and huge range make it relatively easy to position, too.

 

[tetrasodium]

I have seen friendly fire matter A LOT in 5E, especially when monsters roll well on initiative.

Maybe at level 5 or six, but 8d6 is only an average of 28 damage save for half. Take these 14 con example builds

Spoiler

• L5 Fighter 40hp
• L10 Fighter 80hp
• L5 barbarian 45hp
• L10 Barbarian 90hp
• L5 Paladin 40hp
• L10 paladin 80hp
• L5 Ranger 40hp
• L10 Ranger 80hp
• L5 rogue 35hp
• L10 Rogue 70hp

28 might seem like a lot at level 5, but all of those classes keep getting more HP & the ones with lower HP are likely to have dex save proficient and a dex based build to drop that to avg14 or 14/0 with evasion.

 

[Mistwell]

2d6 per spell level