What is the lowest damage Fireball could deal where you would still prep/use it?

[Dausuul]

Fireball is notoriously the best mid-level damage spell in 5E. Suppose it were to have its damage output reduced in 1D&D. What is the hardest it could be nerfed where you would still prepare it and expect to cast it in combat (assuming you were playing a caster of appropriate class/level)?

Assume the spell is otherwise unchanged, and all other spells remain as-is; so, for instance, lightning bolt will continue to deal 8d6.

 

[tetrasodium]

It depends on a lot of things even beyond the spell itself. Class abilities & modifications that come from equipment are important ones as are any possible changes to monsters themselves. Even with nothing adding to it I've seen the 6d6 fireball in my levelup game get prepared & used quite a bit. As a spell 5e's fireball needs to have much more of its power shifted to class/archetype abilities that modify it & other relevant spells in 5.5/6e

 

[Horwath]

6d6.
No saving throw.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

My favorite would be way different, but in this case I'd go with something like this:

6d6 + prone, save for half.

Even better would be an improved Flaming Sphere you can detonate (thus ending the spell) as a bonus action on your turn to deal Xd6 + prone to every creature within 15 of the ball.

 

[Clint_L]

It's not really the damage that's out of line, it's that the AoE is so strong. Against one target, it's a mediocre spell. Against two, it's a good option. Against three or more, it's amazing. So I suggest that making the radius of the explosion significantly smaller might be a better way to nerf it.

Compare to lightning bolt, which no one complains about because it is much harder to get a huge pile of targets at once.

 

[reelo]

I suggest that making the radius of the explosion significantly smaller might be a better way to nerf it.

No. The best way to "nerf" it is to bring back all the balancing drawbacks it used to have when it was invented as a 3rd level spell: have it always fill 33k cubic feet, blowing back into hallways if applicable (casting it indoors should be very risky), have it ignite all flammable objects in the blast, and melt precious metals (coin and jewelry).

 

[aco175]

Lowest 5d6 since it is a burst. Lower than this I would boost lower level spells or take lightning bolt and target single monsters.

 

[SakanaSensei]

For context, my thinking non this is based entirely on my table, which tends to top out at three fights or so a day on a very busy day, meaning casters rarely if ever run out of spells. In that context, the attrition limit of spell slots matters significantly less, and I start looking at the balance between characters.

An average combat is going to have my barbarian swinging twice a round for 1d12 + 4 damage, twice, for an average of 21 if both hit. At 2d6 damage, a fireball needs to hit three targets to break even with the barbarian for the round, and that’s usually possible in fights I design, little mooks are fun.

With so much narrative control laying in the laps of casters (solving mysteries with speak with dead, granting the ability to fly, turning invisible, charming people, etc.), I’d prefer it if the people who only have fighting in their kit to be the best at fighting, and I don’t think it should be close. So I answered 2d6, because there’s going to be moments where you throw that fireball, hit 6-7 targets and still feel like a god compared to miss muscles swinging her axe, and then when the fights done you’ll still be able to send a message around the world to talk with someone important and the barb can never do that.

 

[Amrûnril]

At 6d6, I think it would still be a combat staple.

At 4d6, it would be more of a niche spell, but still useful against large numbers of weak enemies (In the most extreme versions of this scenario, reduced damage could actually be a benefit because of friendly fire considerations). Fire vulnerability could also create valuable use cases, as could the ability to ignite nearby objects/structures while also dealing damage.

 

[Clint_L]

So I answered 2d6, because there’s going to be moments where you throw that fireball, hit 6-7 targets and still feel like a god compared to miss muscles swinging her axe, and then when the fights done you’ll still be able to send a message around the world to talk with someone important and the barb can never do that.

I take your point, but I still can't imagine anyone taking it if it did 2d6 damage. That's just not realistic for a level 3 spell. That's Word of Radiance damage, a cantrip, albeit in a larger area. The average damage by the time you can cast the spell is 7hp, 3hp on a save. It sounds like you run games where there often are swarms of super weak foes but I seldom do. There's no point in including a spell that no one will take.

 

[Clint_L]

No. The best way to "nerf" it is to bring back all the balancing drawbacks it used to have when it was invented as a 3rd level spell: have it always fill 33k cubic feet, blowing back into hallways if applicable (casting it indoors should be very risky), have it ignite all flammable objects in the blast, and melt precious metals (coin and jewelry).

I like emphasizing the deleterious effects; I would do both - lower the radius but also make it incredibly dangerous within that radius.

 

[CleverNickName]

My last wizard was all about lightning bolts, not fireballs.

 

[SakanaSensei]

I take your point, but I still can't imagine anyone taking it if it did 2d6 damage. That's just not realistic for a level 3 spell. That's Word of Radiance damage, a cantrip, albeit in a larger area. The average damage by the time you can cast the spell is 7hp, 3hp on a save. It sounds like you run games where there often are swarms of super weak foes but I seldom do. There's no point in including a spell that no one will take.

I definitely acknowledge that my preferences don't match with a lot of people. I'm in the camp with Kevin Crawford where fighters (as an archetype, not necessarily the one class) are for fighting, casters are for twisting the rules of the world to do the impossible. I don't want to get into the martial/caster debate, though.

 

[tetrasodium]

I take your point, but I still can't imagine anyone taking it if it did 2d6 damage. That's just not realistic for a level 3 spell. That's Word of Radiance damage, a cantrip, albeit in a larger area. The average damage by the time you can cast the spell is 7hp, 3hp on a save. It sounds like you run games where there often are swarms of super weak foes but I seldom do. There's no point in including a spell that no one will take.

Minute meteors is a good example of such a spell dealing 2d6 damage. If not for the needless inclusion of concentration it would be a pretty good spell with a decent use case for blasters given the tiny number of ways a caster can bonus action deal damage& the fact that all but the first of them could be fired off in conjunction with another spell or cantrip. Technically the first could be cast with another spell too if it was cast before the fight or held for whatever reason.

Also don't forget that various classes & archetypes are almost certain to add damage to spells like that & fireball. By dialing back the base output of spells like fireball it allows those classes & archetypes to have more & better features even when their niche is "can cast fireball but would rather cast $these kinds of spells"

 

[Maxperson]

6d6.
No saving throw.

It's supposed to be a nerf, not an increase in power.

 

[Yaarel]

It's supposed to be a nerf, not an increase in power.

If I am doing my math right.

6d6 no save = 8d6 half save

But the reliability of the no save feels stronger.

 

[Maxperson]

If I am doing my math right.

6d6 no save = 8d6 half save

But the reliability of the no save feels stronger.

The average damage of 6d6 is 21 no save and saves are pretty easy to make in 5e. 8d6 average is 28 which when saved is 14, but some won't save.

 

[Yaarel]

The average damage of 6d6 is 21 no save and saves are pretty easy to make in 5e. 8d6 average is 28 which when saved is 14, but some won't save.

For the sake of a smell test, I am treating the chance of fail or save as if 50%-50%.

But the more likely the save, the less damage on average.

 

[Clint_L]

Right now it's a spell that everyone that almost every who can take, takes. ASAP. So that's not great because it removes choice from the game. Buuuut it's a cool spell and one of the most iconic in the game. It existed before D&D was even D&D. So I see the argument for wanting to make sure that it is always a desirable choice. My favourite suggestion thus far is to go back to adding more consequences to it. Like, you shouldn't be able to shape spell with it, for one thing - it's a freaking explosion.

Maybe build on that. Add some risk to it. Like, keep it crazy powerful but add a "to hit" roll and on a miss have it be off target in a random direction by 5-30 feet or something. So there's potential that you could even hit yourself with it if you screw up while using it in tight quarters. That would make it way more fun.

 

[Horwath]

maybe 4d6 with 30ft radius.
then you can reduce the radius by 5ft to gain 1d6 damage;

5d6, 25ft radius,
6d6, 20ft radius,
7d6, 15ft radius,
8d6, 10ft radius, with 1/4 of the area, 8d6 would not be that impactful
9d6, 5ft radius,
10d6, single target.

upcasting increases damage by d6 and radius by 5ft.
upcasting would add 2d6 with keeping the radius if focused on maxed damage.