What is the lowest damage Fireball could deal where you would still prep/use it?

[Ruin Explorer]

I'd be perfectly fine with Fireball at 6d6. I'm just trying to figure out whether I'd take/use it if it was 5d6 or so.

Tidal Wave, for example, is 4d8 (average 18, roughly the same as 5d6's 17.5). I've never really been happy with Tidal Wave, but mostly in comparison to Fireball. The equivalent of 5d6 while knocking prone vs 6d6 without knocking prone could be a reasonable choice, whereas 8d6 just completely overshadows a knock prone effect.

Anyway, that bit of consideration puts me at 6d6 for Fireball.

Tidal wave also has a much small AOE, which is a big issue.

Fireball is 20' radius, so 40' across, which is absolutely gigantic.

Tidal Wave is a line 10' wide and up to 30' long. That's a small fraction of the size of a fireball - about 1/4 to be precise (300 square feet vs 1257 square feet - yes a fireball does have better square footage than a small house!).

I think this is the big issue people don't really process with Fireball - it's a double-whammy. It not only does ridiculous damage for its level (intentionally) in the current design, but it has a ridiculously large AOE, and a circle AOE is one of the easiest to position efficiently.

 

[Asisreo]

I think there's a misconception that fireball is picked because it's the best when the reality is that fireball is picked because it's unqiue.

Fireball is AoE damage pure and simple. No DoT. No status effects. No concentration. It's one big explosion. The only one comparable is lightning bolt, which is pretty much just the same spell with a different shape.

Fireball is balanced simply because it has nothing to balance against it. Cone of Cold has a much better AoE where the party can simply be behind the wizard and it has greater range. Blight is a druidic damage spell, which makes it bad in comparison to those that have access to fireball but it's still viable for druids that want damage.

 

[SakanaSensei]

So in other words, it should be removed from the game. That's my point: if you are going to nerf it to be useless so no one takes it, then just come out and state that Fireball shouldn't be in the game. Which isn't going to happen.

As a martial, if I had the option to grab an ability that let me, a few times a day, take a swing at every creature in a massive area, I’d be all over it. I don’t understand why something that would be an obvious boon to one archetype is worthless on another.

 

[James Gasik]

As a martial, if I had the option to grab an ability that let me, a few times a day, take a swing at every creature in a massive area, I’d be all over it. I don’t understand why something that would be an obvious boon to one archetype is worthless on another.

Mostly because there are better things to use spell slots on. I mean, compare this to the humble sleet storm.

3rd-level conjuration

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of dust and a few drops of water)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Until the spell ends, freezing rain and sleet fall in a 20-foot-tall cylinder with a 40-foot radius centered on a point you choose within range. The area is heavily obscured, and exposed flames in the area are doused.

The ground in the area is covered with slick ice, making it difficult terrain. When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, it falls prone.

If a creature starts its turn in the spell's area and is concentrating on a spell, the creature must make a successful Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC or lose concentration.

So while it doesn't do any damage, for basically an entire combat, you get a 40' radius zone that costs double movement for enemies to move through, and if you fail a save when you do, you fall prone and stop moving entirely, and then next turn, you get to try again, and failure effectively reduces your speed to 1/4th! Oh and it also nicely forces concentration checks if you have an enemy spellcaster to worry about.

That kind of battlefield control and caster denial is something a non-caster could only dream about, way better than a super limited "swing my weapon at everyone in 30'".

Basically, if you're going to use one of your limited spell slots on something, it really needs to be effective. A big, unfriendly blast that can fail to slaughter some CR 1 enemies? Yeah, I'll take the sleet storm, thanks. It can keep enemies you aren't ready for yet out of melee, foil ranged attacks, and mess with casters for a whole fight vs. softening up enemies which are still 100% combat effective.

And I haven't even mentioned hypnotic pattern, slow, or stinking cloud yet!

 

[SakanaSensei]

Mostly because there are better things to use spell slots on. I mean, compare this to the humble sleet storm.

3rd-level conjuration

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of dust and a few drops of water)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Until the spell ends, freezing rain and sleet fall in a 20-foot-tall cylinder with a 40-foot radius centered on a point you choose within range. The area is heavily obscured, and exposed flames in the area are doused.

The ground in the area is covered with slick ice, making it difficult terrain. When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, it falls prone.

If a creature starts its turn in the spell's area and is concentrating on a spell, the creature must make a successful Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC or lose concentration.

So while it doesn't do any damage, for basically an entire combat, you get a 40' radius zone that costs double movement for enemies to move through, and if you fail a save when you do, you fall prone and stop moving entirely, and then next turn, you get to try again, and failure effectively reduces your speed to 1/4th! Oh and it also nicely forces concentration checks if you have an enemy spellcaster to worry about.

That kind of battlefield control and caster denial is something a non-caster could only dream about, way better than a super limited "swing my weapon at everyone in 30'".

Basically, if you're going to use one of your limited spell slots on something, it really needs to be effective. A big, unfriendly blast that can fail to slaughter some CR 1 enemies? Yeah, I'll take the sleet storm, thanks. It can keep enemies you aren't ready for yet out of melee, foil ranged attacks, and mess with casters for a whole fight vs. softening up enemies which are still 100% combat effective.

And I haven't even mentioned hypnotic pattern, slow, or stinking cloud yet!

That looks great to me! I still fundamentally disagree with the premise that 2d6 to everything in a massive area, usually the entire battlefield, is somehow so anemic as to not be worth taking, ever.

Spells like Sleet Storm or Hypnotic Pattern are fine by me because they don’t directly step on the toes of several core character archetypes by showing them up in the fanciest way possible. In fact, as a martial, I’d be ecstatic if my wizard buddy used Sleet Storm in a smart way, because it’s basically terrain that has made the scenario more tactically interesting!

I’ve had players, though, especially new players, hit level 5, and after having asked “can my barbarian like, swing around with their hammer out and hit everyone around me?”, being told no, that’s not how the class works, gotten used to that for 3-4 levels, and then seeing a friend throw fireball and do the equivalent of several rounds of their attacks in damage, get deflated and want to retire their character.

This’ll be my last post because again, I don’t want to drudge up the tired martial/caster divide conversation. People have their camps and I’ve never seen someone change their mind on it. I just really didn’t appreciate essentially being called a liar or people using wording that implied I was arguing in bad faith. “Just say you want it deleted!” No, I’d just like it to be weaker, please, thanks.

 

[Horwath]

The reality is if it did 4d6 damage but otherwise was the same as now (i.e. no prone), some people would still take it, because it has a really good AOE pattern.

that would be complete garbage tier spell.

what, to lose preparation slot for some off-chance that DM will position 15+ creatures in 20ft radius?

 

[Horwath]

I think there's a misconception that fireball is picked because it's the best when the reality is that fireball is picked because it's unqiue.

Fireball is AoE damage pure and simple. No DoT. No status effects. No concentration. It's one big explosion. The only one comparable is lightning bolt, which is pretty much just the same spell with a different shape.

Fireball is balanced simply because it has nothing to balance against it. Cone of Cold has a much better AoE where the party can simply be behind the wizard and it has greater range. Blight is a druidic damage spell, which makes it bad in comparison to those that have access to fireball but it's still viable for druids that want damage.

this.

for 1D&D, 8d6, 20ft Fireball should be benchmark of what all other damage spells will start.

 

[Clint_L]

That looks great to me! I still fundamentally disagree with the premise that 2d6 to everything in a massive area, usually the entire battlefield, is somehow so anemic as to not be worth taking, ever.

Context matters. As a level 1 spell...yeah, that would be okay. As a level 3 spell, against all the other options out there? No way anyone takes that, unless MAYBE they have such foreknowledge of an upcoming event where a zillion kobolds are going to be packed into a room (and even then accept that most or all of them are likely to survive). And no one with limited spell options would use one of them up on such a feeble, niche spell - no sorcerer would even consider it, for example.

Also, you are comparing this to a weapon attack, but weapon attacks get significant damage bonuses, can crit, are basically never resisted, and aren't saveable. What does an actual great sword attack hit for at level 5? Typically at least 11 damage, before bonuses for rage, magic, crits, etc. Adjusting for saves, that Fireball's 2d6 is going to be around 4-5 hp damage, on average, over that area. It's just not a realistic proposal for a level 3 spell in today's D&D.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

that would be complete garbage tier spell.

what, to lose preparation slot for some off-chance that DM will position 15+ creatures in 20ft radius?

No, it wouldn't, not unless most 3rd-level damage spells are "garbage tier". Compared to other 3rd-level damage spells it would still be "okay". It wouldn't be outstanding, but it'd be okay, because of the ridiculous radius. What it would do would be change a spell from a no-brainer to a spell you only memorized when you expected to fight a lot of weak opponents.

this.

for 1D&D, 8d6, 20ft Fireball should be benchmark of what all other damage spells will start.

So Full Casters should just be a lot more powerful than non-casters?

That's what you're saying, essentially.

I do agree that if they insist on keeping Fireball where it is, they should pull up other 3rd level damage spells a bit, but really, they knock Fireball down to 6d6, where it would still be close to a no-brainer, but not a total no-brainer.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

As a level 1 spell...yeah, that would be okay.

LOL.

Dude, have you ever looked at level 1 damage spells? 2d6 save for half over a 20' radius, 1257 square feet, hitting dozens of 5' squares, would be drastically more powerful than any other level 1 combat spell. Not "okay". It'd be better than some level 2 combat spells and certainly on-par with most - Snowball Swarm does a 5' radius with 3d6 damage and Shatter does a 10' radius with 3d8 damage (save for half in both cases, Shatter is objectively superior, to Snowball Swarm, and 2d6 Fireball would also be objectively superior to Snowball Swam in virtually all multi-target situations).

 

[ECMO3]

No, it wouldn't, not unless most 3rd-level damage spells are "garbage tier". Compared to other 3rd-level damage spells it would still be "okay". It wouldn't be outstanding, but it'd be okay, because of the ridiculous radius. What it would do would be change a spell from a no-brainer to a spell you only memorized when you expected to fight a lot of weak opponents.

So Full Casters should just be a lot more powerful than non-casters?

To start with yes, full casters should be a lot more powerful, they have unmatched access to magic.

That aside though, they are not going to be more powerful because they took fireball. A 5th level wizard with Fireball is not the equivalent of a full martial, even with Fireball I think a 5th level martial will usually cut down a 5th level fireball Wizard with ease most of the time unless the latter switches to control or defensive spells and the martial can do that all day long.

 

[ECMO3]

LOL.

Dude, have you ever looked at level 1 damage spells? 2d6 save for half over a 20' radius, 1257 square feet, hitting dozens of 5' squares, would be drastically more powerful than any other level 1 combat spell. Not "okay". It'd be better than some level 2 combat spells and certainly on-par with most - Snowball Swarm does a 5' radius with 3d6 damage and Shatter does a 10' radius with 3d8 damage (save for half in both cases, Shatter is objectively superior, to Snowball Swarm, and 2d6 Fireball would also be objectively superior to Snowball Swam in virtually all multi-target situations).

It is only situationally better than those you mentioned and most of the time I think it would be worse.

Your hypothesis is based on the idea that it covers a larger area, but that only situationally means it does more damage, if as someone else mentioned there are "a zillion" Kobolds packed in AND your own allies aren't in the way then yes it is better, however that is really the only time it is and I would argue that is rare.

If the enemies are all within a 10 foot shatter would be better due to higher damage.

If there is 1 BBEG shatter or snowball storm is better due to higher damage

If they have more than 10 hit points shatter is better even if there are a zillion of them because it will kill some with 1 blast.

If the Wizard is low on the initiative order and the zillion Kobolds are mixed up with allies snowball storm is better because it lets you surgically pick them off.

So I think MOST of the time those spells are going to be better than a 2d6 Fireball.

For all the raving about Fireball, with current RAW I generally see Lightning Bolt used effectively more often because the huge area covered by Fireball is a liability as often as it is an advantage.

 

[tetrasodium]

It is only situationally better than those you mentioned and most of the time I think it would be worse.

Your hypothesis is based on the idea that it covers a larger area, but that only situationally means it does more damage, if as someone else mentioned there are "a zillion" Kobolds packed in AND your own allies aren't in the way then yes it is better, however that is really the only time it is and I would argue that is rare.

If the enemies are all within a 10 foot shatter would be better due to higher damage.

If there is 1 BBEG shatter or snowball storm is better due to higher damage

If they have more than 10 hit points shatter is better even if there are a zillion of them because it will kill some with 1 blast.

If the Wizard is low on the initiative order and the zillion Kobolds are mixed up with allies snowball storm is better because it lets you surgically pick them off.

So I think MOST of the time those spells are going to be better than a 2d6 Fireball.

For all the raving about Fireball, with current RAW I generally see Lightning Bolt used effectively more often because the huge area covered by Fireball is a liability as often as it is an advantage.

I think you are missing the various mechanics changes in 5e that encourage just the situation @Ruin Explorer described as making fireball so great in 5e.

5e made in combat movement so easy that combats are no longer a spread out tactical affair. Players all use ranged attacks with no downsides or just close to the most valued target & the GM is expected to direct the monsterts towards the crunchier targets rather than simply becoming an adversarial killer gm that sends the monsters off to geek the mage/squash the cleric. Past editions had things like 5 foot step/shift & movement based AoOs but not 5e, absent any of the mechanics that once supported a more spread out combat the players are truly playing by a different set of rules than the combat as sport monsters. Toss in bounded accuracy & 6-8 encounter expectations to create a situation where the GM is pressured to put a gobton of weaker monsters that cluster around a point of crunchier players that fireball is likely able to easily cover. The players aren't worried about fireballing an ally in such a situation because monsters lack enough tohit & damage to be a real threat & the death save mechanic combined with things like healing word that even an unusual freak case of it actually mattering probably won't really matter.

The only time I've seen friendly fire actually matter in 5e was when a player asked if a cloud effect was flammable & I told him to double the damage when faced with a choice between "Maybe maybe not do you want to use your action to figure out?" vrs "nah I cast fireball since bob's saying doitdoitdoit" Everyone was shocked when I didn't save level 8ish bob from death by massive damage & there were even efforts to (incorrectly) ruleslawyer it with rules that didn't exist. Players will fireball other players with a shrug & sorry bro we will get you back up. Bob was immediately revivified after the battle concluded.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

A 2d6 fireball for a level 3 spell is just dumb. I'd maybe take it as a level 1 spell, but only if we have several spellcasters that can also cast it, so low average damage at high range actually resulta in high hp removal before the opposition spreads out.

If it scales with +2d6 damage on upcast, it transitions into a great asset, even with lower damage than today's 8d6 fireball.

If it scaled with +1d6 per level I'd rate isbabout as good as flaming hands, which has rather bad scaling compared to thunderwave.

 

[Clint_L]

LOL.

Dude, have you ever looked at level 1 damage spells? 2d6 save for half over a 20' radius, 1257 square feet, hitting dozens of 5' squares, would be drastically more powerful than any other level 1 combat spell. Not "okay". It'd be better than some level 2 combat spells and certainly on-par with most - Snowball Swarm does a 5' radius with 3d6 damage and Shatter does a 10' radius with 3d8 damage (save for half in both cases, Shatter is objectively superior, to Snowball Swarm, and 2d6 Fireball would also be objectively superior to Snowball Swam in virtually all multi-target situations).

You mean a spell like Flaming Hands, which would do 50% more damage but over a smaller area right in front of the caster? Well, let's see, if there were a zillion kobolds packed into that 20' radius in front of the caster and the party's melee combatants weren't doing their job and mixed in with the kobolds then yeah, 2d6 fireball would definitely be the way to go.

But if it was a more realistic situation where 2-3 foes had gotten loose and charged at the caster then I'd prefer the Flaming Hands. Or Magnify Gravity (probably this, actually). Or Frost Fingers (which no one takes at 2d8 damage). Or Thunderwave. Possibly Ice Knife.

Dude, have you looked at Level 1 damage spells?

 

[ECMO3]

I think you are missing the various mechanics changes in 5e that encourage just the situation @Ruin Explorer described as making fireball so great in 5e.

5e made in combat movement so easy that combats are no longer a spread out tactical affair. Players all use ranged attacks with no downsides or just close to the most valued target & the GM is expected to direct the monsterts towards the crunchier targets rather than simply becoming an adversarial killer gm that sends the monsters off to geek the mage/squash the cleric. Past editions had things like 5 foot step/shift & movement based AoOs but not 5e, absent any of the mechanics that once supported a more spread out combat the players are truly playing by a different set of rules than the combat as sport monsters. Toss in bounded accuracy & 6-8 encounter expectations to create a situation where the GM is pressured to put a gobton of weaker monsters that cluster around a point of crunchier players that fireball is likely able to easily cover. The players aren't worried about fireballing an ally in such a situation because monsters lack enough tohit & damage to be a real threat & the death save mechanic combined with things like healing word that even an unusual freak case of it actually mattering probably won't really matter.

The only time I've seen friendly fire actually matter in 5e was when a player asked if a cloud effect was flammable & I told him to double the damage when faced with a choice between "Maybe maybe not do you want to use your action to figure out?" vrs "nah I cast fireball since bob's saying doitdoitdoit" Everyone was shocked when I didn't save level 8ish bob from death by massive damage & there were even efforts to (incorrectly) ruleslawyer it with rules that didn't exist. Players will fireball other players with a shrug & sorry bro we will get you back up. Bob was immediately revivified after the battle concluded.

I have seen friendly fire matter A LOT in 5E, especially when monsters roll well on initiative.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You mean a spell like Flaming Hands, which would do 50% more damage but over a smaller area right in front of the caster? Well, let's see, if there were a zillion kobolds packed into that 20' radius in front of the caster and the party's melee combatants weren't doing their job and mixed in with the kobolds then yeah, 2d6 fireball would definitely be the way to go.

But if it was a more realistic situation where 2-3 foes had gotten loose and charged at the caster then I'd prefer the Flaming Hands. Or Magnify Gravity (probably this, actually). Or Frost Fingers (which no one takes at 2d8 damage). Or Thunderwave. Possibly Ice Knife.

Dude, have you looked at Level 1 damage spells?

Yes, I have, and you're reaching extremely hard and insisting on putting the caster in absolutely terrible idea "in melee" situations to try and justify this. Things have to already have kind of gone bad. Those spells are all hugely inferior to a 2d6 Fireball in most normal multi-target situations.

Magnify Gravity is the only one which really might compete because it has the movement reduction rider, but it's pretty broken OP like most of the stuff from that book.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Your hypothesis is based on the idea that it covers a larger area, but that only situationally means it does more damage, if as someone else mentioned there are "a zillion" Kobolds packed in AND your own allies aren't in the way then yes it is better, however that is really the only time it is and I would argue that is rare.

Absolutely it is not at all rare, as we see with the current 8d6 level 3 Fireball. People are acting like that doesn't exist which is funny, but very very silly.

Please don't repeat this "a zillion" canard. It really doesn't take many monsters before 2d6 in a gigantic area comes out ahead of 3d6 in a tiny area (which often also requires you to basically be in melee). The circular pattern and huge range make it relatively easy to position, too.

 

[tetrasodium]

I have seen friendly fire matter A LOT in 5E, especially when monsters roll well on initiative.

Maybe at level 5 or six, but 8d6 is only an average of 28 damage save for half. Take these 14 con example builds

Spoiler

• L5 Fighter 40hp
• L10 Fighter 80hp
• L5 barbarian 45hp
• L10 Barbarian 90hp
• L5 Paladin 40hp
• L10 paladin 80hp
• L5 Ranger 40hp
• L10 Ranger 80hp
• L5 rogue 35hp
• L10 Rogue 70hp

28 might seem like a lot at level 5, but all of those classes keep getting more HP & the ones with lower HP are likely to have dex save proficient and a dex based build to drop that to avg14 or 14/0 with evasion.

 

[Mistwell]

2d6 per spell level