D&D 5E Companion thread to 5E Survivor: Species

[EzekielRaiden]

Neither halflings, nor elves, are dull.

They are trope makers.

No, I'm quite comfortable saying they're both dull and trope-makers. Indeed, it is their trope-maker status which has caused them to be dull, because everyone copy-pastes the superficial appearances from the worldbuilding juggernaut who made them (Tolkien.)

They're dull because 99.9999% of campaigns use them in precisely the same rigid, "Planet of Hats" ways with zero variation. Elves come in three flavors, stuck-up jerks (usually magical, but not always), hippie tree-lovers (who may also be stuck up, but in a "proselytizing vegan" kind of way), and scary dogmatic xenophobes. Halflings are even worse, in that they have one archetype, "hobbit."

Settings like Dark Sun that actually do something interesting and different with elf and halfling (and dwarf, for that matter) are as rare as hen's teeth. And, unfortunately, they don't always do something interesting with it even when they do! Dragon Age's elves are just oppressed slaves and literally nothing else, or sympathetic scary dogmatic xenophobes, both of whom used to be stuck-up jerks (that were very magical.)

The problem with Tolkien's influence on high fantasy is that he was so good at what he did, he's become something of an unquestionable Great Master. People don't actually think about the things he created or why, don't look beneath the surface, take stereotypes at face value and do nothing to flesh them out beneath that because "oh, you know what elves are, you've read Tolkien, everyone's read Tolkien!" This isn't to question the quality of Tolkien's worldbuilding--instead, it's that because he put out such incredible high-quality worldbuilding, many many many many MANY MANY MANY MANY (×∞) authors just never bother to do anything other or new or even to just think deeply on the stuff he proffered.

Tolkien's elves are absolutely amazing as a one-off. They're perfectly justifiable as a common reference. They become dull when this one single story is mirrored over and over and over and over, ad nauseam, across nearly the entire space of high fantasy.

Hence why I have such a dim view of anything which tries to enforce the "core four" on a game, or to restrict development to only those things. As I have previously said on this forum: "We have the freedom to create ANY world we imagine--so of course every world we imagine is exactly the gorram same. How stultifyingly dull our hobby becomes!"

 

[Scribe]

No, I'm quite comfortable saying they're both dull and trope-makers. Indeed, it is their trope-maker status which has caused them to be dull, because everyone copy-pastes the superficial appearances from the worldbuilding juggernaut who made them (Tolkien.)

They're dull because 99.9999% of campaigns use them in precisely the same rigid, "Planet of Hats" ways with zero variation. Elves come in three flavors, stuck-up jerks (usually magical, but not always), hippie tree-lovers (who may also be stuck up, but in a "proselytizing vegan" kind of way), and scary dogmatic xenophobes. Halflings are even worse, in that they have one archetype, "hobbit."

Settings like Dark Sun that actually do something interesting and different with elf and halfling (and dwarf, for that matter) are as rare as hen's teeth. And, unfortunately, they don't always do something interesting with it even when they do! Dragon Age's elves are just oppressed slaves and literally nothing else, or sympathetic scary dogmatic xenophobes, both of whom used to be stuck-up jerks (that were very magical.)

The problem with Tolkien's influence on high fantasy is that he was so good at what he did, he's become something of an unquestionable Great Master. People don't actually think about the things he created or why, don't look beneath the surface, take stereotypes at face value and do nothing to flesh them out beneath that because "oh, you know what elves are, you've read Tolkien, everyone's read Tolkien!" This isn't to question the quality of Tolkien's worldbuilding--instead, it's that because he put out such incredible high-quality worldbuilding, many many many many MANY MANY MANY MANY (×∞) authors just never bother to do anything other or new or even to just think deeply on the stuff he proffered.

Tolkien's elves are absolutely amazing as a one-off. They're perfectly justifiable as a common reference. They become dull when this one single story is mirrored over and over and over and over, ad nauseam, across nearly the entire space of high fantasy.

Thing is, I dont think thats dull, I think they are there (in other worlds outside of Tolkiens) because they should be there. As tropes, as archetypes, they are universal, at least to my experience in relation to how I view the world, because of my own world view, upbringing, experiences, and so on. They are British, and that is where my roots lay.

They do what they are meant to do, as yes defined by Tolkien, and if people need something different (and there IS scope for it, your Dragonborn among them!) then do so with those things.

Elves and Halflings (Hobbits) are what they are, so why change it?

 

[CleverNickName]

My two coppers?

"I've seen this before" is not the same thing as "this is boring."

I'll even go one step further:

"I keep seeing this over and over again" is still not the same thing as "this is boring."

 

[Scribe]

What trope? The boring extra short humans with furry feet trope?

No, a quick google hit is good enough for me.

However, they are what we call the genteel and rustic people of our true past, farmers and plantation owners without slavery. They hobbies are meant to be what Tolkien himself envisioned what humans should have been: people of the land in which they inhabit. Industrialisation destroyed forests and green lands all over the world, and led to World War I which destroyed even more green land that took a long time to recover. To Tolkien, hobbies represent a pastoral and rural past that humans shouldn't have forgotten.

 

[CreamCloud0]

why do people keep upvoting the halflings they are duller than the seven times seven times seven damn elves for the love of the nailed god why do people love them so?

because i like them.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Thing is, I dont think thats dull, I think they are there (in other worlds outside of Tolkiens) because they should be there. As tropes, as archetypes, they are universal,

They are not, even slightly, universal. Especially not when we have other things that are essentially universal. Like dragons.

They do what they are meant to do, as yes defined by Tolkien,

Except they don't. That's my point.

Tolkien's elves are a dying but powerful people, or perhaps more "fading." They're in many ways more than human: their highs are higher but their lows are even lower. They're aching for the beautiful eternity they've always sought, and which they will only ever find by accepting their ultimately subordinate position and sailing into the West, where they can find rest and reconciliation. Galadriel is a great example here, because she has always longed to be a queen in her own right, something she cannot have in the Undying Lands. By rejecting the temptation of the Ring, she finally makes peace with the idea that the thing she wants (personal dominion of a place that will stay the way she wants it for as long as she wishes to live there...which would be forever because elves are immortal) is something she fundamentally cannot have, and thus she should accept the offer of sanctuary and spiritual fulfillment in Valinor even though it means giving up her dream of ladyship.

Knockoff fantasy elves don't have any of these underlying deeper contextual things. They're just longer-lived, unnaturally slowly-reproducing, and ridiculously pretty, with either a hyped up love of nature (usually Art Nouveau style too) or a superiority complex large enough to be seen from space.

And the same applies to halflings and dwarves. Tolkien's imitators look only at the surface stereotypes, and carry forward exactly none of the founding context.

Why do elves and dwarves hate each other in most fantasy universes? For Tolkien, it's because of the error of Aulë, the dwarves' creator: he made them before the Elves awoke, meaning there was metaphysical tension between the "firstborn" children of Eru Ilúvatar's thought and the first adopted children of His creations, the Valar. For the vast majority of everyone else? Handwaved. They just DO hate each other, for no discernible reason, or for vague and often very poorly explained ancestral wrongs or whatever.

The superficial connections and appearances are copied, but they're just that. Superficial. There's nothing in them.

and if people need something different (and there IS scope for it, your Dragonborn among them!) then do so with those things.

Elves and Halflings (Hobbits) are what they are, so why change it?

Because, to turn your own argument against you, tropes are tools. The creative artisan uses tools creatively. Merely mimicking the components of a Great Master's work, especially without showing an understanding of why that work is great, is a recipe for dull, derivative, repetitive works. You don't need to change much! But it needs to be your own, and used with clear, knowing purpose.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

because i like them.

And that's literally all the reason you need.

 

[Scribe]

Tolkien's elves are a dying but powerful people, or perhaps more "fading."

Yes, the faded glory archetype.

Knockoff fantasy elves don't have any of these underlying deeper contextual things. They're just longer-lived, unnaturally slowly-reproducing, and ridiculously pretty, with either a hyped up love of nature (usually Art Nouveau style too) or a superiority complex large enough to be seen from space.

And the same applies to halflings and dwarves. Tolkien's imitators look only at the surface stereotypes, and carry forward exactly none of the founding context.

This is fine to me. I've long given up on Wizards providing the depth needed in this regard, but as a beginning, as a starting point, I have no issue with the basic tropes.

Because, to turn your own argument against you, tropes are tools. The creative artisan uses tools creatively. Merely mimicking the components of a Great Master's work, especially without showing an understanding of why that work is great, is a recipe for dull, derivative, repetitive works. You don't need to change much! But it needs to be your own, and used with clear, knowing purpose.

Agreed, they are a beginning point, a tool, a framework, archetype, trope. Whatever you want to call them. Its up to the world builder, game designer, story teller, to expand upon or provide meaning and context.

That doesnt mean that the root trope (trope maker/definer) is flawed, because those things still exist for a reason.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

"I keep seeing this over and over again" is still not the same thing as "this is boring."

It is as close as one can get though, no? Surely you would not argue that eating a single meal for the rest of your life, repeated precisely identically each time, would not be boring? Surely you would agree that if we replaced all paintings ever made with variations on the Mona Lisa, that would be boring because it is repetition without alternative? Surely you would recognize that deleting all musing humanity has ever composed except pop love ballads would make music a significantly more dull experience overall, even though there are many variations within that category?

If you dispute any of these, I'm keen to hear it, though I should warn you, it may mean we have so little in common as sapient beings I'm not sure we can meaningfully discuss...much of anything, let alone this specific topic.

That doesnt mean that the root trope (trope maker/definer) is flawed, because those things still exist for a reason.

Okay. 99.9% of the uses of this trope (no phone, not tripe, I don't dislike it THAT much) in tabletop roleplaying are egregiously bad, to the point of actively poisoning my enjoyment of the experience.

Happy?

 

[Scribe]

Okay. *99.9% of the uses of† this trope (no phone, not tripe, I don't dislike it THAT much) in tabletop roleplaying are egregiously bad, to the point of actively poisoning my enjoyment of the experience.

Happy?

I mean I am not happy that you are upset with the tropes or their implementation to that degree, but I can for sure understand having a level of distaste towards any given 'thing' that it sours the experience.

In that regard, the only Gnome I roll with.