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5E: Converting Monsters from White Dwarf Magazine for Fifth Edition

ilgatto

How inconvenient
Monster​
1E AD&D¹​
2E AD&D​
Fifth Edition​
Goblin
AC 6​
AC 6 (10 unarmored)​
AC 15 (leather armor, shield)​
Orc
AC 6​
AC 6 (10 unarmored)​
AC 13 (hide armor)​
Bugbear
AC 5​
AC 6 (10 unarmored)​
AC 16 (hide armor, shield)​
Ogre
AC 5​
AC 5 (natural armor²)​
AC 11 (hide armor)​
Troll
AC 4​
AC 4 (?)​
AC 15 (natural)​
Hill Giant
AC 4​
AC 3 (5 natural armor)​
AC 13 (natural)​
Fomorian
AC 3 (1 or 2)³​
AC 3 (1 or 2)³​
AC 14 (natural)​
Stone Giant
AC 0​
AC 0 (natural armor)​
AC 17 (natural)​
Frost Giant
AC 4​
AC 0 (5 natural armor)​
AC 15 (patchwork armor)​
Fire Giant
AC 3​
AC –1 (5 natural armor)​
AC 18 (plate)​
Cloud Giant
AC 2​
AC 0 (natural armor)​
AC 14 (natural)​
Storm Giant
AC 1​
AC –6 (0 natural armor)​
AC 16 (scale mail)​
1. In 1E AD&D, the Monster Manual (1977) does not say what these monsters ACs are without armour.
Naturally! Who cares what they are wearing? You run into them on some dungeon level and then have at them and collect the treasure when they're dead.

The same goes for 1E often stating that some semi-humanoid does an amount of damage far exceeding what the average human can do with his fists - without mentioning the reason for this.

[purrs contentedly]Hmmm...! The good old days![/purrs contentedly]
 

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Cleon

Legend
So since I've no got a proper avatar (Must... score... trophy... points...) I might as try throwing some thoughts on stats at you. I've tried to put the hypnoclopses between the ogre and the hill giant.


Hit Points 44+24 (coz CON 17) (8d10 + 24 [coz CON 17])
Reasoning: 8 HD puts the hypnoclops between the ogre and the hill giant (7, 10). It's 8 because they are Large and not Huge and from the original 6 to 8 because 2E bumped up the giants.
(original = 6d8; centaur 6d10 + 12 (Large + STR 18 (+2)); merrow 6d10 + 12; ogre 7d10 + 21 (MM1 = 4+1); owlbear 7d10 + 21; troll 8d10 + 40 (Large + STR 18 (+4)); minotaur 9d10 + 27 (Large + STR 16 (+3)); hill giant 12d12 + 60 (MM1 8+1); fomorian 13d12 + 65; half-ogre 4d10 (cross ogre, orc, human, hobgoblin, bugbear; large giant))

I tend to decide on an approximate number of Hit Points and reverse-engineer the CON and Hit Dice needed to reach that.

For example, the original has Hit Dice 6D8, so is a standard 6 HD creature roughly equidistant between an Ogre (4+1 HD) and Hill Giant (8+1-2 HD) but slightly weaker than a Troll (6+6 HD, but its THAC0/"to hit" is one step better than a regular 6 HD monster like the cyclops would have, due to the +6 hp).

Monster​
AD&D Hit Points​
5E Hit Points​
Ogre​
19 (4d8+1)​
59 (7d10+21)​
Xyclops​
27 (6d8)​
XX (Xd10+X)​
Troll​
33 (6d6+6)​
84 (8d10+40)​
Hill Giant​
37½ (8D8+1-2)​
105 (10d12+40)​

Going by the above, I'd say the Cyclops should have somewhere around 70 hp.

If it has CON (+3) like an Ogre, that'd mean a Hit Points of either 68 (8d10+24) or 76 (9d10+27).

With CON (+4) like a Troll or Hill Giant it'd mean a Hit Points of 66 (7d10+28) or 76 (8d10+32). However, I'm not in favour of that as the lack of a +hp in the original suggests it might have a slightly frailer Constitution than those two creatures.

However, I wouldn't mind mixing it up a bit and giving it CON (+2) and, say Hit Points 67 (9d10+18) or 75 (10d10+20).

I slightly prefer the 68/75/76 hit point options over the 66/67 ones, since they put it closer to the Troll's HP.
 

Cleon

Legend
Maybe "If the target's saving throw is successful, the target can thereafter no longer be hypnotized by the same hypnoclops" instead of "is forever immune to the xcyclops’ gaze"?

Can we leave the Hypnostare and other Actions until we've finished with the basic statblock? It should (hopefully) make this thread easier to follow.
 

Cleon

Legend
OK, in light of all this AC 13 seems fair enough, especially coz 2AC 6 seems to suggest 5AC 14 so the lower value could serve to explain the hypnoclops only having one eye?

One could even make a point for AC 14 since that would make them more on par with the unruly lot they often lord it over?

I would be happy with either 13 or 14.

Let's see if @Casimir Liber has a preference.
 

Cleon

Legend
Speed 40
Reasoning: Hill giant 40; ogre 40
But: Maybe Speed 30 because they only have one eye?
(half-ogre (8') 30; fomorian 30)

The original has Move 12″ like an AD&D Human, Troll or Hill Giant, so we could go for a 5E Speed of either 30 ft. (fomorian giant, standard humanoid) or 40 ft. (ogre, standard giant).

I favour 30 feet as there's no mention in the text of them being particularly swift of foot.
 

Cleon

Legend
So we're basically ignoring the "one eye" phenomenon? I wouldn't be wholly adverse to that since I've been trying to figure out how to deal with this in other stats in a consistent fashion and failed so far.

No, but it makes more sense to give them a Special Trait to cover their monocularity, or rather several. I'm thinking maybe a pair of traits called Poor Depth Perception and Illusion Resistance?
 

Cleon

Legend
STR 20 (+5)
Reasoning: Because stronger than an ogre (19) and weaker than a hill giant (21).
But: Maybe too strong for Large?
(STR (physical power) fomorian 23; half-ogre 17’ minotaur 18)


DEX 7? (-2)
Reasoning: Because one eye and therefore less than an ogre (8) and a hill giant (8).
(fomorian 10; bugbear 14; half-ogre 10; minotaur 11)


CON 17? (+3)
Reasoning: Between 17-19 coz more than ogre (16) and less than hill giant (21) and closer to ogre because Large and not Huge.
But: 17 means the same modifier as an ogre. 18 would be in the middle ogre-hill giant and then +4 instead of +3, but why?; 19 seems to much?
(CON (endurance) and fomorian (20); half-ogre 14; minotaur 16)


INT 9-10?
Reasoning: They should be fairly intelligent coz they lead goblins etc., but not too smart because brutes?
(INT (reasoning, memory) 5+ more than ogre, hill giant (5) (←known to be stupid); fomorian 9; half-ogre 7; minotaur 6)


WIS 9? (-1)
Reasoning: 9 coz like hill giant (9) and ogre (7) but should be “low” coz one eye and careless/reckless coz brutal and makes it easier for villagers to hide so not all of them are slaughtered on a raid, which would quickly reduce the population of an average county?
(WIS (insight, perception) fomorian 14; half-ogre 7; minotaur 16)


CHA 5? (-3)
Reasoning: Max 5 coz worse than hill giant (6) ogre (7) for brutality and violating women? Maybe even less because of this reputation?
(CHA (force of personality) fomorian 6; half-ogre 10; minotaur 9)

So that's.

STR​
DEX​
CON​
INT​
WIS​
CHA​
20? (+5)​
7? (–2)​
17? (+3)​
9-10 (+0 or –1)​
9? (–1)​
5? (–3)​

Okay, going through them in order.

Strength 20. Hmm, my gut tells me STR 18 or 19 (+4) would be better. That'd give it a +6 to hit, one less than the +7 of a 5E Troll, since in AD&D a normal Troll has THAC0 13, a step better than the THAC0 15 the Cyclops would have in those rules.

Also, it'll have Multiattack with one bite and one or two claws, and each of those attacks will get its Strength bonus on the damage. Three sets of +5 will makes its Damage-Per-Round three points higher than three sets of +4.

Dexterity 7. Seems too low. They don't need to be as clumsy like an ogre, they might be as agile as a troll (DEX 13 in 5E). The one eye probably makes it hard for them to hit thinks, but its eyesight is probably at least as keen as a human's (it's a LOT bigger than a human eyeball, so may be keener), and it could have as good a range of field depending on its optics. It's the depth perception that's poor, at least that's the only penalty mentioned in the original text.

Plus, wouldn't a Fey tend to be more agile than a clumsy ogre, not less?

I'd go for something in the (–1) to (+2) range, so anywhere from an Ogre's 8 to a Bugbear or Stone Giant's 14. Would prefer 12-13 (+1) to help distinguish it from a bog standard giant.

Constitution 17. I'm OK with that and 8 HD or 9 HD, or CON 15 and 9 HD or 10 HD. My favourite at the moment is CON 17 and 9 Hit Dice, but I'm not that attached to the idea.

Let's go for your suggested CON 17 and 8 Hit Dice for now, but we might need to tweak it later to achieve a particular Challenge Rating. We won't know until we sort out the Actions.

Intelligence 9 or 10. Either is fine, but we have to pick one!

Wisdom 9. Works for me.

While its ability so see through Illusions might suggest it's highly perceptive, that's more likely to be a special trait. If it is good at noticing things due to its oversized eye, that can be achieved with skill proficiency in Perception (or even double proficiency), although keen eyesight like a Giant Eagle or Blood Hawk might be more appropriate. Or give them both Skill in Perception and Keen Sight?

Charisma 5. I'd argue that's too low for two reasons:

First, they frequently control groups of humanoids (goblins, orcs, et cetera) which would be trickier if they have pathetic Charisma.

Secondly, their Hypnotic Gaze would have a Charisma-based saving throw if we use the default ability for gaze attacks. The next most likely ability is Wisdom, which I'd be OK with but that'd just mean I'd want to increase its WIS score instead.

Just cause it's a horrible monster doesn't mean it has to have a low Charisma. If it's good at terrifying creatures into doing its bidding that implies it has a high Charisma, it's just a nasty one!
 

ilgatto

How inconvenient
I tend to decide on an approximate number of Hit Points and reverse-engineer the CON and Hit Dice needed to reach that.

For example, the original has Hit Dice 6D8, so is a standard 6 HD creature roughly equidistant between an Ogre (4+1 HD) and Hill Giant (8+1-2 HD) but slightly weaker than a Troll (6+6 HD, but its THAC0/"to hit" is one step better than a regular 6 HD monster like the cyclops would have, due to the +6 hp).

Monster​
AD&D Hit Points​
5E Hit Points​
Ogre​
19 (4d8+1)​
59 (7d10+21)​
Xyclops​
27 (6d8)​
XX (Xd10+X)​
Troll​
33 (6d6+6)​
84 (8d10+40)​
Hill Giant​
37½ (8D8+1-2)​
105 (10d12+40)​

Going by the above, I'd say the Cyclops should have somewhere around 70 hp.

If it has CON (+3) like an Ogre, that'd mean a Hit Points of either 68 (8d10+24) or 76 (9d10+27).

With CON (+4) like a Troll or Hill Giant it'd mean a Hit Points of 66 (7d10+28) or 76 (8d10+32). However, I'm not in favour of that as the lack of a +hp in the original suggests it might have a slightly frailer Constitution than those two creatures.

However, I wouldn't mind mixing it up a bit and giving it CON (+2) and, say Hit Points 67 (9d10+18) or 75 (10d10+20).

I slightly prefer the 68/75/76 hit point options over the 66/67 ones, since they put it closer to the Troll's HP.
Sound approach, based on 1E stats rather than my gut, which is always good. Glad, though that (at least her), my gut ended up around the same number of hp proposed by you.:)

I agree that that 75 hp and CON+2 would not fly, for that would give it HD on par with a hill giant, which seems too much.
I also wouldn't much favor giving it CON+4 on par with a hill giant and I think 7 HD on par with an ogre doesn't do it.

So I was going to go for 8d10 and CON 17 (+3) but now there's also the possibility of giving it more HD than a troll with the 76 hp and CON+3 option, which may not be such a bad thing because of giantish heritage (?).
 

ilgatto

How inconvenient
No, but it makes more sense to give them a Special Trait to cover their monocularity, or rather several. I'm thinking maybe a pair of traits called Poor Depth Perception and Illusion Resistance?
Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines as adding Poor Depth Perception but I wasn't sure if you could do that in 5E because it would mess with the data in the various stats and attacks.

re Speed: Cool. Didn't know 5E 30 was 2E MV12.
 

Cleon

Legend
Languages Cyclops, Goblin, Gnoll, Orc
(Edit) Reasoning: No Svart coz there's no 5E version of them?

That's more languages than most 5E monsters have and doesn't include Common or Giant, so there's no way for it to speak to an Ogre (the text says "Cyclops speak their own language as well as that of orcs, gnolls, swarts, goblins, hobgoblin and ogre.").

Let's see, in Fifth Edition Orcs speak Common & Orc; Gnolls speak Gnoll; Svarts don't exist officially AFAIK*; Goblins and Hobgoblins speak Common & Goblin (as do bugbears); Ogres speak Common & Giant.
* For what it's worth, an AD&D Svart/Xvart speaks Goblin, Kobold & Xvart; in 3E they speak Goblin and occasionally Draconic (as Kobolds speak Draconic), and in 4E they are mutant gnomes called Xivorts who speak Common & Elven.

So if a Cyclops spoke Common and Gnoll, it would be able to communicate with every creature on that list that is in the 5E Monster Manual.

That said, I don't much care for the idea of them speaking Common as it takes some of the mystique away from them. A Cyclops mightfeel more monstrous if it only speaks "monster".

Wouldn't bother giving them their own language though. There are plenty of creatures in 5E that don't have unique languages, which were two a penny in AD&D.

Perhaps "Cyclops" is just a dialect of Giant or a pidgin of the languages the Cyclops speaks?

I'm tempted to drop one of the listed monster languages, either Gnoll or Orc, since four is a LOT for a 5E monster. Few of the creatures in the Monster Manual have more than two.

So I'm thinking maybe have them speak Giant, Goblin and Orc or perhaps Giant, Goblin and Gnoll?
 

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