5E: Converting Monsters from White Dwarf Magazine for Fifth Edition

[ilgatto]

Just came across the fomorian (based on Irish myth) in the 5E MM. So can we link the Kuklops to them if we ditch the Greek connection? Hmm... I wonder what "Cyclops" is in Gaelic...

Edit: Hmm... it's cioclóip in Irish.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Agree on aiming for CR 3-4. Pondering what hypnotic pattern correlates with in 5e.

Given they are smaller than canon cyclops...cyclopskin? Which would explain why people call them simply cyclops?

I was thinking "fey" as monster type.

 

[ilgatto]

Agree on aiming for CR 3-4. Pondering what hypnotic pattern correlates with in 5e.

Given they are smaller than canon cyclops...cyclopskin? Which would explain why people call them simply cyclops?

I was thinking "fey" as monster type.

The 5E ultrodaemon has a Hypnotic Gaze, but this isn't the same as Hypnotic Pattern, I agree.

Perhaps "Cyclopskin" wouldn't be so bad, if it wouldn't get people in trouble when converting the actual cyclopskin and I wouldn't have an utterly debilitating aversion to anything and everything that has the suffix "-kin" to it in D&D.

 

[ilgatto]

So I also found Hypnotic Pattern in 5PHB.

How about this for a combination of Hypnotic Pattern and the ultrodaemon’s Hypnotic Stare?

Hypnotic Stare. The xcyclops’ eye glows with a twisting pattern that weaves into the mind of one creature it can see within 60 feet of it. If the target can see the xcyclops, the target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw against this magic or be charmed for 6 minutes. The charmed target is incapacitated and can’t move, take actions or reactions, or speak.
The effect ends for an affected creature if it takes any damage or if someone else uses an action to shake the creature out of its stupor. If the target's saving throw is successful, the target is forever immune to the xcyclops’ gaze.

"Forever immune" coz WD21 says "and each victim can only be ‘stared’ once."

I guess it doesn’t really matter that the effect ends when damage/shaken, for 3 free hacks are probably enough to kill the average villager in one go. Also, CR 3-4 should probably allow for freed when damage/shaken?

Hypnotic Pattern and ultrodaemon Hypnotic Gaze say "charmed" but I suppose one could go for "paralyzed"? I guess the difference would be that charmed affects the mind (mental effect and thus WIS?) and paralyzed the body (physical effect and thus CON?)? This may be important for immunities?

Hypnotic Stare. The xcyclops’ eye glows with a twisting pattern that weaves into the mind of one creature it can see within 60 feet of it. If the target can see the xcyclops, the target must succeed on a [WIS/CON?] saving throw against this magic or be paralyzed for 6 minutes. The paralyzed target is incapacitated and can’t move, take actions or reactions, or speak. The effect ends for an affected creature if it takes any damage or if someone else uses an action to shake the creature out of its stupor. If the target's saving throw is successful, the target is forever immune to the xcyclops’ gaze.

I think I’d prefer charmed coz both Hypnotic Pattern and ultrodaemon Hypnotic Gaze say so.

Edit: I suppose "The xcyclops’ eye glows with a twisting pattern that weaves into the mind of one creature it can see within 60 feet of it" must become "The xcyclops’ eye glows with a twisting pattern that weaves into the mind of one creature the xcyclops can see within 60 feet of it" coz 5E seems to do things like this?

 

[ilgatto]

Er, "Xyclops"?

 

[ilgatto]

Yes, it's AC 10.

The numbers go in opposite directions, but at roughly the same rate, so an AC 5 (chainmail) in AD&D is AC 15 in 5E: both are five points away from 10.

The harder to hit monsters tend to have lower ACs in 5E though.

For example, a Giant Scorpion is AC 3 in AD&D (7 points from 10) but AC 15 in 5E (5 points).

Fiends, Dragons and the like tend to be more comparable to their 1E AD&D Armor Classes than their 2E incarnations.



Certainly better than a 5E Ogre, as it's got a rather poor AC.

So, even if 2AC 6 means 5AC 14 (which is better than a hill giant (13) and on par with a fomorian (14); natural armor for both) I’d still say I’d go for a relatively bad AC, such as AC 12, because they only have one eye. Also, AC 12 puts them nicely between ogres and hill giants.

Besides: “Who cares about AC”? I can see the hypnoclops (!!!) wading into village squares and start staring down folk and tearing them to peaces without much regard for their own safety because they are violent brutes and typically deal with villagers armed with wooden cutlery, sharp pieces of dung, and perhaps the odd piece of crockery or a pitchfork.

 

[ilgatto]

So since I've no got a proper avatar (Must... score... trophy... points...) I might as try throwing some thoughts on stats at you. I've tried to put the hypnoclopses between the ogre and the hill giant.


Hit Points 44+24 (coz CON 17) (8d10 + 24 [coz CON 17])
Reasoning: 8 HD puts the hypnoclops between the ogre and the hill giant (7, 10). It's 8 because they are Large and not Huge and from the original 6 to 8 because 2E bumped up the giants.
(original = 6d8; centaur 6d10 + 12 (Large + STR 18 (+2)); merrow 6d10 + 12; ogre 7d10 + 21 (MM1 = 4+1); owlbear 7d10 + 21; troll 8d10 + 40 (Large + STR 18 (+4)); minotaur 9d10 + 27 (Large + STR 16 (+3)); hill giant 12d12 + 60 (MM1 8+1); fomorian 13d12 + 65; half-ogre 4d10 (cross ogre, orc, human, hobgoblin, bugbear; large giant))


Speed 40
Reasoning: Hill giant 40; ogre 40
But: Maybe Speed 30 because they only have one eye?
(half-ogre (8') 30; fomorian 30)


STR 20 (+5)
Reasoning: Because stronger than an ogre (19) and weaker than a hill giant (21).
But: Maybe too strong for Large?
(STR (physical power) fomorian 23; half-ogre 17’ minotaur 18)


DEX 7? (-2)
Reasoning: Because one eye and therefore less than an ogre (8) and a hill giant (8).
(fomorian 10; bugbear 14; half-ogre 10; minotaur 11)


CON 17? (+3)
Reasoning: Between 17-19 coz more than ogre (16) and less than hill giant (21) and closer to ogre because Large and not Huge.
But: 17 means the same modifier as an ogre. 18 would be in the middle ogre-hill giant and then +4 instead of +3, but why?; 19 seems to much?
(CON (endurance) and fomorian (20); half-ogre 14; minotaur 16)


INT 9-10?
Reasoning: They should be fairly intelligent coz they lead goblins etc., but not too smart because brutes?
(INT (reasoning, memory) 5+ more than ogre, hill giant (5) (←known to be stupid); fomorian 9; half-ogre 7; minotaur 6)


WIS 9? (-1)
Reasoning: 9 coz like hill giant (9) and ogre (7) but should be “low” coz one eye and careless/reckless coz brutal and makes it easier for villagers to hide so not all of them are slaughtered on a raid, which would quickly reduce the population of an average county?
(WIS (insight, perception) fomorian 14; half-ogre 7; minotaur 16)


CHA 5? (-3)
Reasoning: Max 5 coz worse than hill giant (6) ogre (7) for brutality and violating women? Maybe even less because of this reputation?
(CHA (force of personality) fomorian 6; half-ogre 10; minotaur 9)


Senses darkvision 90 ft.
Reasoning: Because caves and underground and literally all 5E monsters have darkvision (sort of).
But: I'm not really in favor of this because caves have openings to the outside and they can light fires and use torches at night and underground and because Greek cyclopes not especially known to see in the dark?


Languages Cyclops, Goblin, Gnoll, Orc
(Edit) Reasoning: No Svart coz there's no 5E version of them?

P.S.: WTL is it with me not having bright reds and blues in my color palette?

 

[Cleon]

So, even if 2AC 6 means 5AC 14 (which is better than a hill giant (13) and on par with a fomorian (14); natural armor for both) I’d still say I’d go for a relatively bad AC, such as AC 12, because they only have one eye. Also, AC 12 puts them nicely between ogres and hill giants.

Besides: “Who cares about AC”? I can see the hypnoclops wading into village squares and start staring down folk and tearing them to peaces without much regard for their own safety because they are violent brutes and typically deal with villagers armed with wooden cutlery, sharp pieces of dung, and perhaps the odd piece of crockery or a pitchfork.

While Ogres and Hill Giants suffer an AC drop from AD&D to 5E, I see no reason we should apply the same to this poor "Xyclops".

I'd prefer its AC to be more "absolutely scaled" based on the original AC rather than matching a 5E creature that has a significantly worse AC than it did in AD&D.

Heck, the 5E version of the Fomorian doesn't even wear armour, while the AD&D version wears so many scraps of armour it has AC 3, the equivalent of plate mail!

So I'd prefer an AC of 13 or 14 rather than 12. I'd go for 13 (natural) myself, as (a) that's the same as an Orc in both AD&D and 5E, (b) it give the Cyclops an AC two lower than a Troll in both AD&D and 5E, and (c) it's a point lower than the baseline AC 14 of a Challenge 4 monster according to Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating in 5E's Dungeon Master's Guide (page 274, or see this online CR Calculator).

Note that the AC differences can go both ways. While 5E Ogres and Hill Giants are a lot easier to hit than they were in AD&D, 5E Goblins and Bugbears are a lot harder to hit.

For comparison, consider the Armour Classes of some standard-issue giants and humanoids:

Monster​	1E AD&D¹​	2E AD&D​	Fifth Edition​
Goblin	AC 6​	AC 6 (10 unarmored)​	AC 15 (leather armor, shield)​
Orc	AC 6​	AC 6 (10 unarmored)​	AC 13 (hide armor)​
Bugbear	AC 5​	AC 6 (10 unarmored)​	AC 16 (hide armor, shield)​
Ogre	AC 5​	AC 5 (natural armor²)​	AC 11 (hide armor)​
Troll	AC 4​	AC 4 (?)​	AC 15 (natural)​
Hill Giant	AC 4​	AC 3 (5 natural armor)​	AC 13 (natural)​
Fomorian	AC 3 (1 or 2)³​	AC 3 (1 or 2)³​	AC 14 (natural)​
Stone Giant	AC 0​	AC 0 (natural armor)​	AC 17 (natural)​
Frost Giant	AC 4​	AC 0 (5 natural armor)​	AC 15 (patchwork armor)​
Fire Giant	AC 3​	AC –1 (5 natural armor)​	AC 18 (plate)​
Cloud Giant	AC 2​	AC 0 (natural armor)​	AC 14 (natural)​
Storm Giant	AC 1​	AC –6 (0 natural armor)​	AC 16 (scale mail)​

1. In 1E AD&D, the Monster Manual (1977) does not say what these monsters ACs are without armour.
2. The 2E AD&D Player's Option: Skills and Powers and the Complete Book of Humanoids both say an Ogre's natural armour class is 5, despite an ogre's Monstrous Manual entry implying they wear armor ("Dressing in poorly cured furs and animal hides, they care for their weapons and armor only reasonably well"). Presumably if their natural AC is 5 a suit of leather or hide armor does not improve their AC, but is just warmer.
3. An AD&D Fomorian wears scrap armour which normally gives AC 3, but if it has better scraps or a shield if may have AC 1 or 2.

 

[ilgatto]

While Ogres and Hill Giants suffer an AC drop from AD&D to 5E, I see no reason we should apply the same to this poor "Xyclops".

I'd prefer its AC to be more "absolutely scaled" based on the original AC rather than matching a 5E creature that has a significantly worse AC than it did in AD&D.

Heck, the 5E version of the Fomorian doesn't even wear armour, while the AD&D version wears so many scraps of armour it has AC 3, the equivalent of plate mail!

So I'd prefer an AC of 13 or 14 rather than 12. I'd go for 13 (natural) myself, as (a) that's the same as an Orc in both AD&D and 5E, (b) it give the Cyclops an AC two lower than a Troll in both AD&D and 5E, and (c) it's a point lower than the baseline AC 14 of a Challenge 4 monster according to Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating in 5E's Dungeon Master's Guide (page 274, or see this online CR Calculator).

Note that the AC differences can go both ways. While 5E Ogres and Hill Giants are a lot easier to hit than they were in AD&D, 5E Goblins and Bugbears are a lot harder to hit.

For comparison, consider the Armour Classes of some standard-issue giants and humanoids:

Monster​	1E AD&D¹​	2E AD&D​	Fifth Edition​
Goblin	AC 6​	AC 6 (10 unarmored)​	AC 15 (leather armor, shield)​
Orc	AC 6​	AC 6 (10 unarmored)​	AC 13 (hide armor)​
Bugbear	AC 5​	AC 6 (10 unarmored)​	AC 16 (hide armor, shield)​
Ogre	AC 5​	AC 5 (natural armor²)​	AC 11 (hide armor)​
Troll	AC 4​	AC 4 (?)​	AC 15 (natural)​
Hill Giant	AC 4​	AC 3 (5 natural armor)​	AC 13 (natural)​
Fomorian	AC 3 (1 or 2)³​	AC 3 (1 or 2)³​	AC 14 (natural)​
Stone Giant	AC 0​	AC 0 (natural armor)​	AC 17 (natural)​
Frost Giant	AC 4​	AC 0 (5 natural armor)​	AC 15 (patchwork armor)​
Fire Giant	AC 3​	AC –1 (5 natural armor)​	AC 18 (plate)​
Cloud Giant	AC 2​	AC 0 (natural armor)​	AC 14 (natural)​
Storm Giant	AC 1​	AC –6 (0 natural armor)​	AC 16 (scale mail)​

1. In 1E AD&D, the Monster Manual (1977) does not say what these monsters ACs are without armour.
2. The 2E AD&D Player's Option: Skills and Powers and the Complete Book of Humanoids both say an Ogre's natural armour class is 5, despite an ogre's Monstrous Manual entry implying they wear armor ("Dressing in poorly cured furs and animal hides, they care for their weapons and armor only reasonably well"). Presumably if their natural AC is 5 a suit of leather or hide armor does not improve their AC, but is just warmer.
3. An AD&D Fomorian wears scrap armour which normally gives AC 3, but if it has better scraps or a shield if may have AC 1 or 2.

Impressive table!

OK, in light of all this AC 13 seems fair enough, especially coz 2AC 6 seems to suggest 5AC 14 so the lower value could serve to explain the hypnoclops only having one eye?

One could even make a point for AC 14 since that would make them more on par with the unruly lot they often lord it over?

So we're basically ignoring the "one eye" phenomenon? I wouldn't be wholly adverse to that since I've been trying to figure out how to deal with this in other stats in a consistent fashion and failed so far.
Unless you have a solution for that, of course.

 

[ilgatto]

Hypnotic Stare. The xcyclops’ eye glows with a twisting pattern that weaves into the mind of one creature it can see within 60 feet of it. If the target can see the xcyclops, the target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw against this magic or be charmed for 6 minutes. The charmed target is incapacitated and can’t move, take actions or reactions, or speak.
The effect ends for an affected creature if it takes any damage or if someone else uses an action to shake the creature out of its stupor. If the target's saving throw is successful, the target is forever immune to the xcyclops’ gaze.

Maybe "If the target's saving throw is successful, the target can thereafter no longer be hypnotized by the same hypnoclops" instead of "is forever immune to the xcyclops’ gaze"?