D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

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High level spell casters definitely change the game. If you have a party that is a monk, a barbarian, a bard and a rogue, that is going to present entirely different design challenges than a party that has a wizard, a cleric, a ranger and a warlock.

I think the design solution for this is to rely on situations and problems with multiple routes to success for the players, rather than specific "puzzles" that need specific solutions (in the form of spells or whatever).
Right now I'm running a 1st-through-20th-level campaign I wrote. We've a party of six full-on spell casters, all of whom are between L11 and L13 at this point. Your proposed solution is exactly what I'm using and I've found it necessary with my party: these guys are so off-the-wall but also so creative in their magic use that at least half the solutions they use are things of which I'd not dreamt. For each dilemma or "puzzle" I give them, I make sure I come up with at least three--usually five or six--distinct, well-defined solutions I can imagine working and how I'll have my NPCs and world react to each in case of success or in case of failure (lotta work, but this is what it takes). What so often happens next is they come up with something completely different, but I manage to react on the fly because I spent so much time thinking through all sorts of possibilities and likely reactions. Then I go back and re-write all sorts of stuff for next week's session. It's heavy work, but we're having a lot of fun.

What I cannot see but someone more experienced might see is how to accomplish all this without a ton of prep. If anyone who's done this a bunch has tips there, I'll be grateful.
 

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Yeah. The higher level they get, the more solutions they will come up with. Its an awful lot of wasted text if the writer tries to cover every solution. In the 1-20 campaign I kickstarted, at the start of each I tried to address the new stuff the PCs will have.....lots flight, dimension door, etc., if you tried to cover everything i think your head would explode.
 

Stalker0

Legend
What I cannot see but someone more experienced might see is how to accomplish all this without a ton of prep. If anyone who's done this a bunch has tips there, I'll be grateful.
the key is…stop caring.

By that I mean, you no longer have to build problems that have solutions, or encounters that are fair. The gloves can come off at high levels, you can just go nuts, figuring out an insane solution to the problem is the heroes job.

Hmm why yes that mcguffin is in a sphere of annihilation, in the middle of the negative energy plan, and is in the future so it doesn’t even exist yet. How does the party get it to it…no idea, they will figure it out, or maybe they do it without the maguffin.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Here is another example of how I used high level power to shape an adventure. I had a genius NPC vs the “greatest detective in the multiverse” aka one of the pc.

At one point the NPC had burned their master plan book in a personal demipkane and locked the ashes in an invisible chest behind a wall of force in a secret compartment. It would be ludicrous for any one to find it.

So of course the party found it and was able to painstakingly reconstruct the book and determine the plan. The raced off to a secret base with an elaborate ritual that they never figured out but were able to destroy.

Except it was a total red herring. The npc had no idea how the party would find the book, they were better than him at this, but he knew they would, and so burned a false book. He set up a whole lair with an elaborate fake ritual just to delay the party for a few key hours while he did his real work
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
the key is…stop caring.

By that I mean, you no longer have to build problems that have solutions, or encounters that are fair. The gloves can come off at high levels, you can just go nuts, figuring out an insane solution to the problem is the heroes job.

Hmm why yes that mcguffin is in a sphere of annihilation, in the middle of the negative energy plan, and is in the future so it doesn’t even exist yet. How does the party get it to it…no idea, they will figure it out, or maybe they do it without the maguffin.
Agreed.

And to add. While fleeing at lower levels of D&D is HARD, at high levels PCs have many varied escape options.

So even IF they get stuck in a situation they cannot prevail they can generally recoup.
 

Right now I'm running a 1st-through-20th-level campaign I wrote. We've a party of six full-on spell casters, all of whom are between L11 and L13 at this point. Your proposed solution is exactly what I'm using and I've found it necessary with my party: these guys are so off-the-wall but also so creative in their magic use that at least half the solutions they use are things of which I'd not dreamt. For each dilemma or "puzzle" I give them, I make sure I come up with at least three--usually five or six--distinct, well-defined solutions I can imagine working and how I'll have my NPCs and world react to each in case of success or in case of failure (lotta work, but this is what it takes). What so often happens next is they come up with something completely different, but I manage to react on the fly because I spent so much time thinking through all sorts of possibilities and likely reactions. Then I go back and re-write all sorts of stuff for next week's session. It's heavy work, but we're having a lot of fun.

What I cannot see but someone more experienced might see is how to accomplish all this without a ton of prep. If anyone who's done this a bunch has tips there, I'll be grateful.
I second the "Don't" prep so hard. Don't make detailed solutions. Don't prep more than the next session except for general concepts. Make outlines of the power forces in your world. Give them a non-detailed list of resources (lots of cultists, some politicians... or Unlimited kobolds with some ogre muscle... or numerous merchants with caravans, hired muscle... or numerous cheap taverns and a few warehouses...) and what the motivations of the group are. Probably add a leaders name and description (Bob, a mysterious ogre).

Have a set of generic encounters and locations. Such as a merchant caravan with guards, a group of devils, a strike force of horrors. And then locations, a forest road, a tavern with a hidden basement, a desert keep, etc. Then mix and match those as needed, and add more than one group of NPCs when needed to make the encounter appropriately hard.

Doing all that will give you a set of tools to create a hundred different challenges on the spur of the moment. So when the players go off the rails you have something to throw at them. "Oh, you find a map of the nearby forest with a x marked deep in the forest." Now you can throw a random caravan they can cross while on their way (if they go) and then a hunting lodge infested with devils.

As for the initial challenge you plan for the next session, as has been said, you don't have to work out exact solutions. General ideas of what might be possible is all that's needed. So they could probably use teleport, or perhaps they could summon the solution, or they might be able to planar shift into the closed room, or...

Oh, and don't worrying about balancing the encounters. They party will either figure it out, or run away and come back later. For instance, my party was about level 14 and I used the map from Riverguard Keep (PotA) and put something like 40 devils (chain devils and others) and a couple of BBEG's and placed them about the place (where the watches were setup, were the misc were lurking, etc) and placed some guards and wards and symbol traps and then let the party figure it out. All the encounter guidelines said is should have been a 3 or 4 times deadly encounter. But the party figured it out, and had a blast.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
While I agree with you in principle, the dragons in the MM are hands down the worst designed monsters of 5E -- doubly so the great wyrms.
You also have the demon lords and dukes of hell that go above CR 20. But by and large WotC has been negligent in giving us monsters above CR 20. With only a few exceptions they're all dragons, demons and devils.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Dragons shouldn't have spells. They should have dragony abilities that make high levels paladins soil their chainmail shorts. They are not only fundamental figures of fantasy the world over, they are IN THE NAME.

Lazy, boring dragons in D&D are unforgivable.
Dragon magic is a very common trope. I think they should have spells. They should also have dragony abilities that make high level paladins soil their chainmail shorts.
 


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