D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

[dave2008]

I'm trying to think of a (western) mythical or literary dragon that is also a wizard and am coming up empty. Dragons that cast spells is a D&Dism as far asi can tell.

There was a book series I read when I was young and starting with D&D and magic and spells basically came from dragons. Human spellcasters couldn't hope to catch up to dragon's spellcasting. This was 40 years ago or so. So probably after D&D, but not by much. I will see if I can remember what it was called.

I have not read the series , but earthsea dragons (1960s IIRC) use magic and are: "virtual demi-gods who speak the "Language of Creation" as their mother tongue."

EDIT: just check out this wiki lots of spell/magic using dragons: List of Dragons in Literature

 

[Maxperson]

There was a book series I read when I was young and starting with D&D and magic and spells basically came from dragons. Human spellcasters couldn't hope to catch up to dragon's spellcasting. This was 40 years ago or so. So probably after D&D, but not by much. I will see if I can remember what it was called.

Even more current is G.R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire. Magic comes from the existence dragons and when dragons return, spells start working much better and the world becomes more magical.

 

[dave2008]

Even more current is G.R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire. Magic comes from the existence dragons and when dragons return, spells start working much better and the world becomes more magical.

I was going for things closer to the time D&D came out. The number of magic using dragons in literature since 2000 is ridiculously large.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm trying to think of a (western) mythical or literary dragon that is also a wizard and am coming up empty. Dragons that cast spells is a D&Dism as far asi can tell.

From a western perspective probably. But from an eastern one, plenty of Chinese and even Indonesian dragons have magic abilities or control over elements.

 

[TheSword]

Are there any examples of good Tier 4 adventures for any edition?
Can we identify the elements that make them work?

I still have my High Level Campaigns hardcover from AD&D. Ironically one of the few books i struggled to sell on eBay… I wonder why?

It had seven maxims…

- Don’t Depend on the Dice (They’re too fickle)

- Intelligent Adversaries (consider the opponent’s intelligence; review the creature’s weaknesses; review the creature’s strengths; prepare for defeat; minimise personal risks; don’t Fight Fair

- Control Magic (use magical items, make magic tempting, remove unwanted magical items, challenge spell memorisation and acquisition, understand magic’s limitations)

- Be Aware of Demographics (Understand the PCs place in the world)

- Think on an Epic Scale (heroes are not anonymous; heroes deserve heroic tasks that have reaching Impact)

- Plan Ahead (create villains who learn, have consequences, use fame and infamy, maintain the balancing act)

- Share Responsibility (garner player interest, have players set goals, form allies and enemies, give all NPCs personality)

Its pretty old now, but as I write them I can see that most of the elements have found their way into modern adventure design at all levels.

 

[Stalker0]

In terms of high level adventure ideas, probably the simplest is the "World Break". A sudden apocalypse has come to the world, and the heroes need to stop it. This covers a lot of high level checkboxes.

• Limited Time: The end of the world is here....right now. The PCs have precious little time to stop it. The more they delay, the more people die. This focuses the party on action over planning, they might have a little time to get their bearings, cast some divinations, etc, but for the most part its go time!
• Instant world building: This is a great way to introduce a high level finale to a campaign that didn't have high levels in mind. You don't need an established BBEG or previous epic threats waiting for the party. Perhaps the break caused another plane to spill in monsters, or perhaps the worldwide damage itself is the challenge.
• Flexible Options for resolution: This scenario has a lot of options for the PCs. Maybe they find the person causing the issue and take them out (or maybe that stops it from getting worse, but doesn't solve the problem). Maybe they deal with the crisis directly. Maybe they find a way to save or move most of the people away from the crisis, whatever.
• Immediate credible BBEG: Whoever kicked this apocalypse off has immediate street cred with the PCS, even if its someone they have never heard of.

The biggest thing to consider with such an idea: Divinations. Why didn't the diviners of the world pick up on this apocalyptic event? Were the gods blind to it for some reason (or conspired to make it happen). Was the event so sudden that divinations couldn't pick up on it? did the BBEG arrange some kind of divination blank across the world? etc etc. You will want to think about some credible reason for this to add to the worldbuilding.

Here's a quick example: The BBEG has a dark pact with Vecna (for fun flavor you could have the BBEG have lost an eye as a token of the exchange). Vecna kept the event a secret for just long enough that mortals and gods didn't see it coming. In fact, note to the party in their travels that several notable diviners suddenly "lost their powers" right before the event happened, reinforcing the notion.

 

[Reynard]

Think novels. The dragons in the Raymond Feists novels use magic. The dragons in Jim Butcher's Dresden books use magic. And in several other novels/series. It's not a new thing or a D&D thing.

Those are both based on gaming fantasy, FYI.

 

[Maxperson]

Those are both based on gaming fantasy, FYI.

Maybe Feist patterned after D&D, but the Dresden Files are not, and it ignores the many other works like that. D&D is not all there is OR the source of all when it comes to dragons using magic.

Edit: Just looked and Feist didn't, either. He made up his own game based on Midkemia.

 

[Reynard]

Even more current is G.R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire. Magic comes from the existence dragons and when dragons return, spells start working much better and the world becomes more magical.

But that is not dragons casting spells. That's all I said, that dragons should be. Wizards. They should have inherent dragon abilities.

But D&D does and always has relied entirely too much on "spell like abilities" and otherwise applying PHB magic to monsters.

 

[Reynard]

From a western perspective probably. But from an eastern one, plenty of Chinese and even Indonesian dragons have magic abilities or control over elements.

Which still shouldn't be spells.